90: BTVS S5E6 “Family”

[00:00:10] The That thing. That thing? That thing of not understanding... Half of what she says? As for example. But she's super nice. You betcha. Think there'll be a lot of Wiccas there? Heavy Wiccan crowd? Well, that's sort of her deal. Her and Willow are all Wiccy. Swinging with the Wiccan lifestyle. Which is cool. Oh, yeah. I just hope we fit in. Not awkward. With Willow, it's like she's got this

[00:00:40] whole new thing in her life. But she's still Willow, so I can always figure her out. But Tara, I just know she likes Willow. She already has one of those.

[00:00:47] Hello, everybody. Welcome to Still Slaying, a Buffyverse podcast. I'm Penny. I'm Dina.

[00:01:17] And I'm Kara. For this episode, we're going to be discussing Season 5, Episode 6 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer titled Family, written by JW and Rebecca Kirshner and directed by JW. This episode originally aired on November 7, 2000 to an audience of 3.9 million households. Some translated alternative titles in other languages for this episode were Blood Ties in French, Family Ties in German, and The Family in Italian.

[00:01:47] The Family. I like The Family. Yeah, The Family is a little, I don't know, sounds like The Mafia. Yeah. Dina, welcome back to Still Slaying. I can't remember what the last episode was that you were on for. I don't either. Isn't that awful? No, it's fine. Don't worry about that. I do want to know, because we've talked about this, where were you in the fall of 2000 when this was airing originally? I don't,

[00:02:17] where was I? I was in Somerville. What was I doing? I have no idea. That was a long time ago and I'm menopausal. Yeah, 26 years ago. Wow. That brain fog will sneak up on you. I was engaged. I had just gotten engaged. There we go. There you go. That's exciting. Yeah. That's cool. I only remember the day because it was election day. And that was the one and only time I voted in New York City.

[00:02:45] And I just remember that going to the polls and also almost every time I vote, I have had to vote by mail. Like I'm constantly out of town on election day. So I almost always vote by mail. But that year I voted in person and the voting machines in New York City are the super old fashioned kind with the like levers. Oh, gosh. Like click and turn. And it was so satisfying to vote with like this old mechanism.

[00:03:15] Instead of just like pushing a touch screen. Yeah. Or like poking over. Filling out like a, you know, number two pencil form or whatever that I do in Massachusetts. It was just like, I don't know. There was something old fashioned and awesome. It felt really good. And did it have the curtains to surround you? Yeah. So cool. And the machines were like brass. You know, they were very old fashioned looking. They had like a slight art deco vibe to them. They were super cool. That's cool. I was like, God, that's like no other experience I've ever had voting.

[00:03:45] That was insane. Man, my first election I had to vote by mail because I was overseas. I didn't get the experience because it was. It's not satisfying. No. But you were overseas and that's awesome. That is true. And it was 2008. So it was a happy election. Oh man. That was a good one. Well, this election was, was, we'll talk about it in the flashback section, I guess. But I was so excited that morning to vote for Hillary Clinton for Senate in New York. Yep. And to vote for Al Gore,

[00:04:15] who I was sure was going to be our next president. I voted for him in our seventh grade class election. That's so cute. I was one of the only ones. You're such a baby. I love it. And that night, my roommate and I had a few people over to watch the election returns, all of us together. Oh man. I bet that was special. So I don't think we watched Puffy Live that night. I think we were caught up in the election stuff. That's fair. That was important.

[00:04:44] That election seems so innocent right now. I know. Yeah. It's such a different time. Yeah. Oh my goodness gracious. So this is our 90th episode of the podcast and we are working our way up to number 100 and we haven't quite decided what we're going to do for number 100, but we have decided we're going to have a little giveaway. Kara, want to talk about it? Yes. So if you remember over, I think it was our last episode,

[00:05:12] we talked about how Mattel has come out with a Buffy edition of Polly Pocket and I set an alarm to make sure that I could get one when they launched on the 4th and I was able to get two before they sold out. Yay! Nice. So we figured why not do a fun little giveaway for our 100th episode. So what the plan is, if you write in feedback

[00:05:42] for episodes 90 through 99, every piece of feedback counts as one entry into the giveaway. So people that called in or wrote in feedback for today, you already have one entry for yourself. So if you have been thinking about sending in feedback or calling in at all, please do so because now you can win something out of it and whether it's something that you want to keep, it is really cool,

[00:06:11] I will say. But I love Polly Pocket so I might be biased. We, you know, check it out. It's a great gift if it's not something for you and it's a fun little piece of collector history. So make sure to send in your feedback for entries. They are unlimited entries up until the 100th episode and then at the 100th episode we will announce the winner. It's fun. Excellent. Thank you. I'm excited. So much.

[00:06:40] So let's go back to a more innocent time, November 7th, 2000. Find out what was going on in the world. Oh gosh, I can still hear this first song in my head during that time. I'm sorry. Sorry to any Creed fans out there. But the number one song in the U.S. at this time was With Arms Wide Open by Creed. And I think every middle school boy I know

[00:07:10] played it on repeat and that is why it is still in my head today. And it was a time when there was a lot of people singing like in that like Yes. They were copying. I can still remember the music video on TRL. That's funny. I could see it in my head. And then of course in the U.K. the number one song was My Love by Westlife. A little different. A little different speed. And we've got

[00:07:40] best-selling books. There's no change of course with the fiction book. The Last Precinct by Patricia Cornwell is still going strong. I believe that's a Case Garpetta novel. Actually. I can look on the bookshelf. It might be right by me. I think it is. There's a TV show now with Nicole Kidman as Case Garpetta. So I've been rereading those books. They're pretty good. Anyway, The Beatles Anthology by The Beatles is the number one book

[00:08:09] now for non-fiction again. And in the U.S. box office, number one is Charlie's Angels. Number two is Meet the Parents. And number three is The Legend of Bagger Vance. Huh. I haven't seen any of those. I've only seen the first two. Yeah. I like that Charlie's Angels movie. It's fun. Bill Murray as Charlie essentially was. Bosley. He's Bosley. Bosley. That's right. Charlie. Who's the voice of Charlie? I think they got the same Charlie

[00:08:38] from the 70s TV show. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I just remember Sam Rockwell as the client. That's right. And he lived in this amazing house like off a bluff in Malibu that I just would like drool over. It was so beautiful. Oh. I just googled Charlie's Angels remake voice of Charlie and apparently they're remaking another one. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me. For 2026.

[00:09:08] It's like, oh, okay. Here we go again. Yeah. That's funny. Ugh. Didn't they just do one like a few years ago? Anyway. All the remakes. It's just because everything's 10 years ago now. Yeah. Yeah. Just a few years ago. Just a few years. Just a few years ago. And in the news that day, Dina, want to fill us in? November 7th, 2000 was election day and the controversial U.S. presidential election between George W. Bush and Al Gore was inconclusive.

[00:09:38] While ultimately the Supreme Court ruled in Bush's favor, it was a process to get there. Many other notable things happened on November 7th. Hillary Clinton was elected to the U.S. Senate, thus becoming the first U.S. First Lady to win public office while still the active First Lady. Margaret Atwood won the book prize for her novel The Blind Assassin. And Tim, okay, I don't know how to say his last name. Russert? Russert. Russert famously declared the outcome of the 2000 presidential election

[00:10:08] would depend on Florida, Florida, Florida during NBC coverage. How right he was. I remember they called it for Al Gore and I went to bed. Oh, that's great. And then when I got up in the morning, my roommate was like, remember how you went to bed after they called the election for Al Gore? I was like, yeah. And she's like, so after that, it was different. Yeah. It's like, I hate to have to tell you this. Oh,

[00:10:38] it's crazy. Absolutely crazy. And of course, during this week on November 6, 2000, a European commission filed civil action against big tobacco, specifically Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds seeking damages for alleged cooperation with organized crime and smuggling cigarettes into Europe. Now that has changed considerably now. On November 9th, Berlin remembered Kristallnacht as thousands marched in memory

[00:11:08] of the 1938 pogrom that perceived is it presaged? Presaged? What is wrong with me? It's Sunday. You wrote this. I know. I can't think. I was like, wait, is that how? It's because of reading. Yeah. Is it presaged? Presaged. Yes, it is. Jesus. You can do it. You can do it. It's okay. All of this gets fixed in post and no one will ever know. It's like,

[00:11:38] my brain is, I didn't take my ADHD meds today because I'm not working so I'm going to blame it on that. Okay. On November 9th, Berlin remembered Kristallnacht as thousands marched in memory of the 1938 pogrom that presaged the Holocaust and was mirrored in attacks occurring in 2000 on immigrants and synagogues in Germany. You just cut out that one part. Yeah, sure. Lots of happy news going on in the world

[00:12:07] in the year 2000. Yeah, great times. Good stuff. So, let's turn the page and get into it with a discussion of this very Terra-centric episode. It's about time. So, Dina, as our guest, you get to start us off on any topic your heart desires. Okay. So, the best part of this week was re-watching this episode and then driving to work which isn't the best part of the week

[00:12:37] but I like the driving process and this week I was listening to Appalachian music partly because of Dolly Parton but also I just love that old tiny mountain music and I'm like listening to the banjo and the violin and then I start hearing the lyrics to the song that's playing and I came home and printed it out because it's very fitting. So, the lyrics start my mother left my daddy ran away with another man it wasn't very long until my daddy married again they had a little boy they called Jimmy

[00:13:06] my half-brother they said he was just like my dad and I was like my mother now Jimmy's old enough to go to school he's so mean he tells my daddy lies on me just to start a scene my daddy beats me every day for one thing or another and tells me every day I'm getting more and more like my mother so then she goes off and runs away with a boy from school and has a rotten relationship in the mountains poor blah blah blah finally it ends daddy tells folks back home I ran away

[00:13:36] just like my mother oh if I can only tell my father I'd rather have the real true love of a daddy and a mother and I mean immediately I thought of Tara yeah and I went home and I looked up who wrote it and it wasn't Dolly Parton but it was her aunt and so just in also finding out that Dolly had produced Buffy which I hadn't known it just it just fit this whole that is interesting it was not coincidence

[00:14:05] I don't think so we probably should have given a trigger warning at the top of the episode that we're probably going to talk a bunch about abusive family systems and just child abuse in general and so if that's something that might be triggering to you like feel free to turn the podcast off and come back next week but I think that we can have a pretty good discussion about it because the episode

[00:14:35] really provides a small amount but very poignant examples of the way family abuse systems work and one of them is pitting siblings against each other yes right like you're talking about in the song like the brother got to be mean to the sister because that was how the parents let it be and the mom ran away gee I wonder why when the father is abusive and when the father is like you know

[00:15:04] doesn't like something the daughter is doing he's like you're just like your mother which is attacking the daughter both for her behavior for being like a mother that she loved but lost who's gone and also like who you are as a person from your birth is a problem yeah and all of those things are present in Tara's relationship with her father right he's like you know the brother gets to abuse her with the father's apparent approval

[00:15:34] right and she is clearly treated kind of like a servant under class by the family when she's home you know the the um the cousin Beth who I wrote down cousin is Beth is carrying water for the patriarchy white women are patriarchy enforcers and indoctrinators and she frames Tara wanting freedom from oppression as selfish living god knows what kind of lifestyle and also that that

[00:16:03] Donnie and her father have to do for themselves like that is a giant tragedy that makes me that these two adult men have to like cook their own food and do their own laundry or whatever nightmare it's vile and then Donnie saying I'll beat you what did he say so help me I'll beat you down if you don't come with us like right there was the most blunt blunt statement that she was abused probably physically well yes physically mentally yeah

[00:16:32] and the isolation right they're like only your family will ever love you and we're your family and they're not your family and you owe us and we've taken care of you all of those things are super common in abusive families it's it's it's interesting because as full adults you can look at someone saying that to another person and be like obviously they're trying to manipulate you you got to remember Tara probably heard that from the time she was like a baby oh yes she was raised in it and she was at this point

[00:17:02] even on the show Tara is what turning 21 or 20 she's turning 20 she's still a baby yeah and she was raised constantly being conditioned to think that she owed her family everything that she was a servant and that she was evil in nature because there's an unspecified demon inside of her it is heartbreaking yeah it is and you can see how much it shaped her as a

[00:17:31] person and it's clearly you know affecting her relationship with willow and her ability to open up to willow and we you know we've seen her do a couple things that were a little questionable that made us wonder what was going on with her earlier on in this season you know like messing up the spell for locating so magic and demons and you know initially watching it especially me when I was 12 watching

[00:18:01] that episode being like is Tara a bad guy like is she somehow trying to sabotage the scoobies and then you get the reveal that no no she was scared of being found out herself because her family had essentially abused her to the point where she was convinced she had a demon inside of her and it was something that couldn't be revealed or she would lose willow she would lose her friends and she's been like you were saying she has

[00:18:30] been told that her family is the only outlet she can have that would accept her and it's just heartbreaking to watch she does such a great job amber benson portraying the confusion the hurt the anguish the anxiety all at once with Tara by the looks on her face alone in the stutter that's very subtle in this episode but you can see it coming back it's just and when we first meet her in season four

[00:19:00] her stutter is pronounced and over the course of her relationship with willow it starts to go away and it's really fading and then the second her father walks in the magic shop it's like full brilliant touch it's yeah so and going back to calling him sir which you know they did in the old days but not now it's very old-fashioned yeah yeah and the way she like is so physically awkward with her family like barely hugging and like just

[00:19:30] it's so palpable in that scene that that is not a loving family when they walk in the magic shop and she and she sees them the look everything about her physicality changes and it's so heartbreaking the way willow is like now she's gonna introduce me her new girlfriend and Tara just doesn't yeah yep like I don't want my family to even know who you are and willow being willow is like she must be ashamed of me like her first willow's first thought is not

[00:19:59] something is bad with Tara and her family her willow's first thought is like I'm not good enough because willow has her own issues yeah well in the number of times this show has already used the the notion of the Wiccan lifestyle as a stand-in for homosexuality yeah it's not subtle it's not at all and it's so interesting that you know unfortunately it's still relevant it's

[00:20:29] we've made a lot of progress from 2000 to 2026 but there are still people out there who have this struggle with their families with families like Tara and the entire time I know we'll get into this but the entire time I was thinking about just experiences in my life and things that I've seen growing up so close to evangelical Christianity and having a lot of friends that were

[00:20:58] very deep in it and struggling with accepting whether they were bisexual homosexual anything at all and seeing this play out on Buffy in the year 2000 and is necessary honestly the number of people that this reached who either needed to get the message in the position of Tara's family or in the position of Tara and Willow that your family that

[00:21:28] you choose is still your family blood doesn't determine everything it's just another reason why I love this show so much that they're tackling such a serious topic and a heavy hitting topic in a smart way and in a way that still feels lighthearted because the message really seeps in whether you want it to or not and Willow and Tara are major characters they aren't a side character it wasn't that long before this that whenever there would

[00:21:57] be a gay character on a show it would be like a very special episode of Growing Pains the gay uncle you know and they'd be on one episode and then and their entire life would be the tragedy of being gay right that was everything about them that was their entire personality that was their entire character arc that's it whereas like Tara and Willow have lots of complicated things going on they are characters throughout the show they've been gay for many many many episodes and they will

[00:22:27] continue to be gay after this episode it's not like a very special episode of Buffy although looking back now I kind of wish they had ever done one a very special episode because I think that would have been hilarious but um I am kind of embarrassed by how long it took me to realize that the cold open scene with the kitten is Tara talking about herself yeah she's like oh I didn't even get that there's this stray kitten and and they they went to the pound and there were lots of other

[00:22:56] like lost animals at the pound and I'm like yeah she went to college where there was lots of other interesting people of various kinds and it was the she she was free but she was lonely and then and then Willow's like did she get adopted by a nice family at first they have the dolphin camel conversation oh yeah did she get adopted by a nice family and Tara's like no you're giving away the ending and I'm like that is the ending of the episode perfect I did not get that at all I'm glad I got that today I've seen that

[00:23:25] episode like 30 times but it's so subtle like that's why the writing is it doesn't hit you over I mean to be fair at the end spike does kind of hit you over the head with it it's in the nose but yeah yeah yeah yeah I um I love that it occurred to me I have a little girl in my life who is adopted and her favorite game when she was little was little lost kitten and we played this game over and

[00:23:55] over and over and over and over and you know how little kids like to repeat things and the game was that I was walking through the woods and I saw a little lost kitten and I rescued it and I took it home and adopted it that's the whole game and then we would repeat it and um it took me an embarrassing long time to realize that that game was her working out the fact of her adoption oh and like play acting it and like working it through in her own head and I'm like oh duh and

[00:24:24] then I I embraced it with more enthusiasm because at a certain point I was like I don't want to play we've been playing this game so much and then one time I had her rescue me and she was just like I don't know how to do this this is very confusing transcript you can do it and then she started being like now there's two kittens now there's six kittens now there's 23 kittens I was like that is too many kittens 23 kittens no um but and then I

[00:24:54] I was watching the the scene and I was like oh Tara's talking about herself like I just felt so dumb well I feel dumb now not knowing it didn't want to make you feel that way I uh I also I love how in the scene they they talk about how you know Willow's like you know I would come get to bed and Tara's like oh I'm gonna stay up and read some spells and I just want to be useful to the group and it occurred to me that this is also a sign of somebody with an abusive family yes she she has

[00:25:23] internalized this belief that the only way the group will accept her is if she is constantly providing them value all the time and that the second that she's not like noticeably useful they will not have time for her anymore which is so sad from I mean any perspective but especially thinking about from the perspective of a child where you know what you should not be worrying about things like oh am I am I providing value like I want to

[00:25:53] make sure I'm helping I want to make sure that I'm doing things around the house or oh I need to do this because if I don't mom will get angry or dad will get angry and I need to manage their emotions too on top of mine and you can just really spiral going into thinking about what it was like for Tara to grow up in that type of household and all of a sudden you know her character makes so much sense after you've seen this episode her diligence her kindness

[00:26:23] the way she is such a giver is that she thinks that's the only way to earn love different children interpret abuse in different ways and you know every family is different but some of them it's I'm only loved and accepted if I'm getting good grades I'm only loved and accepted if I am succeeding in sports I'm only loved and accepted if I'm pretty I'm only loved and accepted if I'm having sex with someone right you know like as as they get older sometimes they feel like outside of their

[00:26:53] family the only people that will ever take care of them is people that they provide sex or work or you know performance they perform and and I yeah it's sad it's really sad but you know I I was I was never abused I had a loving wonderful family I grew up with that mentality that I have to get straight A's I have to be a good girl I have to clean the kitchen so I mean part of it is the whole patriarchy and the way you're brought

[00:27:22] up as a girl or a boy but it's I mean I I'm starting to break free of that now and I'm 55 56 see I don't remember so it's common but in poor Tara's case it's it's true abuse right it was reinforced for her right you know because I I had something similar like if I made if I made a B plus or something in school there was a long time really until law school where it would

[00:27:52] make me spiral because it was perceived as a bad grade and my parents didn't think that my parents were always very much just do your best that's all we care about if you're doing your best then we're happy and I was like no no I'm not good enough like there's something different and for me I think a lot of that was just anxiety that wasn't yeah I have a similar thing about about grades and academic performance that like anything less than 99th percentile

[00:28:20] is failure and that's rough yeah it's a hard standard to maintain and it was rough when I went to law school because I went to a very competitive law school and it was a shock to my system that I was no longer one of the smartest kids in the class like I was I was fine I was on par with the other smart people but I was used to being up the smart like the smartest kid and

[00:28:50] it was it was an emotional like slap in the face I was like oh no now nobody will ever want to be my friend like I just I'll never succeed as a lawyer like all those things because I thought that you know academic performance was my vector for acceptance right yeah and it was it was hard to get used to it there was a lot of therapy I had to do a lot of therapy about the ability to get an A minus without having a spiral and I got a C in law school one time what did you do I remember so

[00:29:20] clearly exactly how it happened it was my last final of the second semester of my third year of law school so my last thing I ever did in law school and I just and I got I had gotten not mugged exactly but like purse snatched and like the like two days before and like my and I had to move I was I had to move that's a lot I was living in a on a friend's like in a friend's guest room in their apartment to finish law school because my lease ended May 1st and law school ended May 11th and I and then

[00:29:49] I lost you know I didn't have my wallet and like everything was chaotic and I just ran out of steam to study for my final final yeah just like no no no and the class was criminal procedure and I knew I wasn't going to be a criminal lawyer so I was like I just have to take whatever grade I get yeah and that's a big step yeah it really is it's good acceptance I was sort of forced into it yeah but um and when I did get my transcript you know a few weeks later when the transcripts came out I was like I just knew

[00:30:18] it I knew it but in the long run I already had a job like no it didn't matter at all yeah because I wasn't one of those people who was trying to get like a supreme court clerkship or whatever like where your grades matter forever like once you are you have your first after law school job like nobody's gonna look at your transcripts again nobody cares yeah oh that's nice especially uh with the type of law school that you went to that's true it is it's it's handy but I can imagine I

[00:30:48] think there's something that I had a similar experience going to college because I you know I wasn't number one in my class graduating from high school but I was number three I I was pretty much used to things working out and not having to study as much or all of this and getting into college and being around other people that were in a similar position I was

[00:31:16] like oh oh and it you have to kind of rebuild your own world and your internal value system to understand like you know my worth has to come from just me as a person who I am not what grades I make or what achievements I make and that's a really hard structure to kind of tear apart and rebuild once you get there though it's great because then

[00:31:43] you're like oh there's so many interesting smart people to talk to now that is true yep that is that is very helpful and poor Tara you know we talk about this a lot on this show during the college years is college is such a interesting time and a time for growth and figuring out who you are and with Willow we see her being able to really step into who she is and

[00:32:13] she seems to have a much easier time with it than Tara and even Willow dealt with you know an overbearing mother and had a lot of issues with parental expectations from her mom but Tara is a it's different different situation and seeing you know Amy Adams I love this guest appearance by Amy Adams and she was great she's yeah way before she was like super famous yeah

[00:32:43] she does such a good job of coming off so cold but that that switch flipping when at first she's being nice to Tara and kind of trying to lure her back in like you can come home with us like we your family will take care of you you know dad and Donnie need you that type of thing and then as soon as Tara pushes back at all that switch flips and she is right back to kind of tearing her down taking that taking her down a peg and that is one of the most realistic

[00:33:14] portrayals I feel like of that type of family system or you know not even just within a family any sort of structure like that where you're close it could be you know toxic work environments and watching the look on Tara's face is really heartbreaking as she's coming to the realization of oh okay nothing's changed yeah I thought maybe you were going to be on my side but no even you are my enemy

[00:33:42] and do you think um it's cousin Beth right I keep wanting to call her cousin Amy um she do you think at the end she was jealous yes okay yeah I did too but then I was like or she just brainwashed and she's truly appalled that Tara's making this decision I think a little of both yeah but I think I think jealous um because it never occurred to her to try to break free right like Tara went off to

[00:34:10] college even right and they're all like you're lucky we let you go to college and and I don't think Beth ever tried that no no it reminds me of and I you know if you're listening to this podcast you podcast you know that we're not new to political discussions but it reminds me of this whole notion that children are going off to college and being indoctrinated yes gosh and the idea that they're

[00:34:39] being brainwashed into becoming something they're not when really it's just giving them the freedom to learn about who they really are and learn about the real world and you know be open to new ideas and and just meet people who are different from yourself and Tara has clearly benefited greatly from that already we see the the growth in her from when we first meet her to this episode like her confidence is

[00:35:09] clearly much higher she's starting to you know fit in a little bit better with the scooby she feels comfortable enough to make jokes even if they're not well received and understood like she is slowly coming out of her shell and she's you know she's she's got agency now and watching that light kind of dim immediately once her family is present you're all the viewers like oh

[00:35:38] there's the problem this is the root of what Tara is dealing with and the fact that it's easily read you know I I see a lot of evangelism in it that oppressive kind of purity culture cycle the shame especially that telling her that she's you know essentially cursed and there's a demon inside her that was something that I struggled with a lot growing up

[00:36:07] is the idea of you know purity because it didn't quite makes a lot didn't make sense to me going to church growing up but that that sense of shame is something that still rears its head if I'm not paying attention and it just works so perfectly here to look at it's her brother and her dad perpetuating this primarily with cousin Beth assisting and like you said Dina I think I think it was you that

[00:36:36] said it's essentially you know it's patriarchy and the women upholding and helping perpetuate patriarchy and the fact that we've got that layer and also the layer of Tara you know coming into terms with her sexuality and being comfortable in her relationship with Willow it's just such a smart way to tackle it it's beautiful writing I I was thinking about shame because that

[00:37:05] is a topic that has come up for us on this podcast numerous times and especially we talked about it when we covered k-pop demon hunters because shame is the portal that the demon Guima uses to corrupt people and turn them into his demon servants and the way that the shame for Tara manifests is that she is extra secretive she lashes out at Willow

[00:37:34] right she's like not everything is about your friends and stuff all and she cast this spell to hide yes because the shame makes her want to not be seen when if she didn't have this shame that has been drilled into her since she was tiny she would look around and be like they've accepted Anya and Anya used to be a full demon yeah a literal demon like Buffy used to date a vampire and this other vampire hangs out all the time like maybe they

[00:38:03] would accept this maybe I could share this with Willow and she could help me deal with it but the shame is too big and so she she works against her best interests by being secretive and hiding and doing this spell that almost got somebody killed yeah I mean a lot of that I see that so clearly when I watch it as an expression of internalized homophobia almost yeah and this concern

[00:38:31] that if they know who I really am they're not going to accept me if they know who I really am you know what could what are they going to say to me and that fear that's rooted in it and of course her family is perpetuating that idea and her dad you know saying like once they know who you are once they know this about you they're not going to accept you and it's it's something that so many people have

[00:38:59] to deal with on various levels but with Tara I just there's something about Amber Benson that just makes me want to go through the screen and hug her yeah like luminous it's the perfect person I think to tell this story through because there's this vulnerability to her but also like a deep strength yes and you see that more later oh yeah which you know when I first

[00:39:26] saw this episode I don't remember all my initial feelings watching in the real time but I remember totally convinced she was a demon and happy about it I'm like okay they're gonna get rid of her now and this little this little phase is gonna be done and I don't think it was I think I resented that Oz was gone yeah a lot of people did yeah and and I didn't understand she she did seem evil so I totally bought into yeah she's a demon

[00:39:54] and I love that by the end of the episode I'm like oh thank god she's here and the the way the writers it would have been so mundane and easy to do if they made her a demon right whether she's accepted or not and they didn't and I think that is just the coolest way into this episode and bringing up all these major deep issues and just putting away the fluff just it's just a brilliant

[00:40:20] snapshot yeah and they don't sacrifice the humor which is the magic of this show and why we keep coming back to it is that it deals with some really heavy stuff like child abuse like identity and then it throws in like spike hitting her in the face she's like I know a real quick way to solve this all right I have the clip and I want to play it I hope you'll all be happy hanging out with a disgusting demon excuse

[00:40:52] me what kind what what kind of demon is she there's a lot of different kinds some some are very very evil and some have been considered to be useful members of society well I what does it matter evil is evil well let's just narrow it down oh why don't they make this simple

[00:41:27] uh him I mean that only works on humans there's no demon in there it's just a family legend am i right there's a bit of spin to keep the ladies in line you're a piece of work i like you i'm not a demon you're not a demon you hurt my nose yeah you're welcome i just love him

[00:41:57] he's so good spike is always surprising and yet at the same time you're like of course yep he's so himself and it's so cuts through the the noise he's like oh i know what's going on like once again spike is such an observer of humans yes and he understands what's going on it's like what enabled him to tear the group apart at the end of season four

[00:42:25] was that he had observed their relationships and identified the weak spots without really like asking questions without trying too hard just observation and in this scene he's like it took him like 30 seconds to get a number on on what was going on he's like i know exactly what's happening here and then he's so funny because he's like you're a piece of work i like you of course his delivery perfect the other thing about spike is that like at this

[00:42:49] he's he's evil so he's admiring of this plot by this family he's like oh brilliant he's like oh that's a clever way and he only revealed it because he doesn't have any vested interest one way or the other he's just likes to like show how smart he is yep and it works every time he is spot on in the scene when that happens she spins

[00:43:16] and has her hands on her hips and she's like and that only works on demons it's so sassy it's so cute well and they do a nice job of kind of playing with our expectations in this episode that scene between buffy and xander where they're talking about tara and what to get her for her birthday and it's very clear that they don't feel like they really know her they haven't gotten to know her so you wonder what their reaction is going to

[00:43:44] be later on and i get chills every single time buffy stands up to tara's dad is like you want to take her out of here against her will you've got to come through me and then dawn you know yeah stands up too and it's so want to hear it i have it yes you're going to do what's right tara now i'm taking you out of here before somebody does get killed

[00:44:10] the girl belongs with her family i hope that's clear to the rest of you it is you want her mr mcclay you can go ahead and take her you just gotta go through me what you heard me you want to take tara out of here against her will you gotta come through me and me

[00:44:42] is this a joke i'm not going to be threatened by two little girls you don't want to mess with us she's a hair puller and you're not just dealing with two little girls you're dealing with all of us except me except spike i don't care what happens this is insane you people have no right to interfere with tara's affairs we are her blood kin

[00:45:09] who the hell are you we're family it's so nice it's totally beautiful because when when mr mcclay says tara belongs with her family i i hope you see that buffy's like yep that's exactly what i see and and tara has this look on her face where she's like this is what i always thought was gonna happen yeah they're gonna reject me and i'm gonna have to go home with my family and it's a nightmare and then when buffy's like you gotta go through me and then the camera goes to

[00:45:38] tara's face the look on her face is like the sun rises it's so sweet you're standing up for me and she just gets like taller and calmer like her whole demeanor shifts in this moment when she's like they're willing to stand up to my father for me and of course the father doesn't know who buffy is yeah but tara knows yeah and then it's so funny when dawn's like and me

[00:46:06] and then i really believe giles steps in there because he's like this guy's not gonna listen to women he doesn't understand i need to be a male authority figure for a minute you know like whatever and then spike oh with the comedy except me i don't care what happens it's so good he's perfect but i love that moment too between dawn and buffy because we see so much of them butting heads and

[00:46:32] you know this sister back and forth and buffy kind of standing up for dawn and saying you know she's a hair puller like she don't want to mess with her either is really sweet yeah and we and it's um buffy i don't mean we can go back it's transitioning into this is my real sister yeah no matter what like she's accepted finally or it's yeah

[00:47:01] she has a respect for dawn in that moment because she sees herself in dawn i think yeah she's like yeah that's what my sister would say she would be like and me yeah it's it's charming and and also funny at the exact same it's like deep and funny at the same time which is the heart of this show that's so hard to do i think a lot of we're so used to it on this show and this show does it so well that i think sometimes i forget

[00:47:29] even and i'll watch i'll be watching other shows or trying to get into other shows and striking this balance is incredibly difficult to pull off and i don't know if many shows have been able to do it as well as buffy i don't know i mean it's a rare combination because most shows that are deep are serious and most shows that are funny are somewhat shallow right i mean they have deep moments

[00:47:56] but buffy is constantly action drama tragedy comedy supernatural can't be all the time every episode it's remarkable yeah well and it it shows you in this episode you talk about how tara's kind of her whole demeanor and posture changes once buffy stands up for her

[00:48:19] and the number if there was any singular theme throughout buffy and angel i feel like that's chosen family you know who your your family is who is there for you who supports you it doesn't necessarily have to be you know people you're related to by blood and the fact that tara is kind of emboldened by that support also shows how critical support systems can be

[00:48:49] and when you do have that support from family whether that's who you have chosen to surround yourself with or your blood family it makes all the difference in the world and it's nice to see tara finally feel that because she has essentially been alone her entire life and she must have felt very isolated still

[00:49:10] even with willow if she thought that she was hiding this part of her from willow and it's just it's so i like how you said it's like seeing the sunrise essentially like that is a perfect analogy because it changes tara and you know not no spoilers but you see that change in her as the season goes on

[00:49:35] empowered in a very real way and being fully accepting of your own identity is incredibly empowering and it goes back to what you're saying about internalized homophobia like ripping that out internalized misogyny so many women have it um we all have demons in our head right whether you know it's insecurity or something some trauma that happened to us everybody's got something

[00:50:02] and you know the work of your life is pulling those things out and putting them in the light of day and dealing with them so they don't have power over you anymore and it's it's cool to watch it happen visibly nice well and it's we talk about this a lot but it it's what gives buffy such strength and and there are a few episodes coming up that it's not really a spoiler to say that buffy wants to dive

[00:50:29] into what got previous slayers killed yeah what what what about them like what was that thing that kind of made everything go wrong and with buffy we've seen it time and time again that her ability to love to care is a strength of hers her connection with people gives her kind of the you know the will to keep going

[00:50:54] that's why she's not going when otherwise you know maybe she wouldn't have enough fight left in her that's why the buffy that we saw in the wish universe doesn't survive yeah because she doesn't have this support network she doesn't have a will to live the way that you know regular universe buffy has and

[00:51:17] um it's i don't know it's one of the reasons why i love the show so much the theme about found family and the the need to rely on your found family is uh important it's funny we uh all of us are fans of the show the walking dead and a lot of times people talk about the walking dead like it's the first show

[00:51:39] that ever had found family and i'm always like yeah but but yeah but buffy like i like it's really not it didn't invent it it's it's good at it walking dead is good at found family but it didn't it didn't invent it yeah genieße vollen kaffee geschmack mit chibo feine milde and coffeiniert entdecke das original von chibo jetzt auch ohne koffein wie gewohnt aromatisch fein naturmild und in chibo

[00:52:05] qualität chibo feine milde and coffeiniert für deinen bewussten genussmoment wann und so viel du möchtest selbst am abend jetzt erhältlich in deiner chibo filiale im supermarkt und auf chibo.de erhalte mit dem code feine milde 15 bis 31 12 einmalig 15 prozent auf das feine milde sortiment it occurs to me that in the other scene in the cold open is the scene between buffy and giles where

[00:52:31] she's filling him in about everything she learned about the key and you know she's still in the same clothes she was wearing in the last episode it's the same night that she like got she like found the monk and met the demon woman and like all that stuff and she's filling him in and i love the way the scene is shot because they are they are leaned close to each other like leaning over heads close together

[00:52:53] speaking very soft voices in the dark living room at buffy's house and uh the scene is shot from outside the room through the french doors yeah and you see them in there and so it has this whole vibe of like urgent secrecy and buffy at one point stands up and goes and looks up the stairs and you know she's like thinking about dawn and looking towards dawn's bedroom when she's talking about dawn and giles

[00:53:20] is like maybe we should send her away to your father and buffy's like you know he didn't even call back when i called him about mom and he's in spain with his secretary living the cliche and it's it's a little of like a of um foreshadow of like fathers being disappointing yes and and not really being there

[00:53:44] for their daughters that we get later more more directly with tara it's um it's a great little moment between her and giles well there's oh go on you sure um i like that with giles as well because buffy is finally you know she kept so many secrets from him over the the seasons keeping angels reanimation a secret keeping riley's commandos a secret and now she is relying on him solely with this burden

[00:54:13] and she's been so burdened as a slayer but yes she's had support but in this season she is just she's burdened by the slayer stuff supernatural but life is becoming a burden she's got her mother's natural illness she's got a sister who is supernatural but it's still a natural human condition when somebody a parent gets sick you come and you take care of your family and you lose your

[00:54:39] own life you lose college you lose this and i um i love that she's turning to giles and he becomes the father figure for her yeah found family it's the follow-on from the first episode of the season when she at the end after dracula she goes to him and she's like i need you to be my watcher yes yep oh i love that well there's so many you know there's a lot of comparisons to be made in this episode

[00:55:04] you talk about buffy's absence absent father with the presence of giles as a father figure and found that the presence of giles as a father figure and found her own family and the acceptance of tara compared to her blood family and their you know pretty much utter rejection of who she is as a person and for the first time re-watching this i was struck at the comparison between riley and tara and you know

[00:55:33] because both of them essentially are outsiders new to scoop the scoobies they are and they are also trying to find their place in the group and tara ultimately ends up having an easier time with it i think than riley does and we start to see his struggle a lot within the last couple of

[00:55:59] episodes him talking about you know he doesn't have superpowers anymore and that makes him incredibly insecure and feel inadequate when it comes to his relationship with buffy and the difference is tara finds some acceptance of herself and some you know she sees the group wanting her to be brought in

[00:56:22] as a positive thing and she is not really worried about her place in the group anymore and riley just can't seem to let it go that he doesn't have that strength and this is the episode where he is at

[00:56:39] you know the demon bar and kind of flirting with sandy and he you know you could see him on the brink of going down a very dangerous path and it's it's very interesting to watch him side by side with tara in this

[00:57:01] episode and it kind of shows you know a different way of dealing with the same problem and i'm trying to be very careful about what i say because i don't want to kill anything away but it it it becomes an even more interesting comparison that i'm excited to look at between how tara deals with being an outsider

[00:57:25] and how riley deals with that feeling of being an outsider and inadequate in some way he's not wrong that buffy is keeping something from him but his response to it is like you don't love me instead of being like you have a lot of burdens on you that i can't understand sure i want to be there for you i want to help you how can i help he's like if you're not telling me everything it means you don't love me i'm

[00:57:53] leaving by let me know if you ever change your mind like there's a there's a lack of flexibility in his approach to her and like i i identify or not not identify i sympathize with him feeling like she's keeping things from him yes but the truth is that no matter how long you're with someone and how much you love them they're never gonna know every single thing about you all the time yeah like this always amazes me in any kind of fiction like tv or

[00:58:19] movies or whatever when when somebody like something is revealed and the other person in the relationship is like i can't believe you never told me that and i'm like they told you like 800 things but there were 9 000 things sorry like you can't always tell everything and sometimes it's something so big that you're like yeah i kind of can't believe you didn't tell someone that but but in any relationship there's going to be things you don't know about another person there's no perfect mind meld there's no

[00:58:46] like perfect knowledge of another person and and people need to have the privacy of their own minds to just feel like a human being and i have sympathy for riley but i'm also super frustrated with him oh yeah i didn't care for i i didn't like the way he treated sandy either and i can't pinpoint why he was just not really cruel he was just so dismissive and belittling yeah yeah uh and it's pretty damn

[00:59:14] telling that when they decide whose family he wasn't there yeah yeah because he was hurt and went to sulk at willie's bar instead of being around when all this stuff was going down it's um i'm so bummed that willie wasn't at willie's bar the willie replacement bartender was very disappointing um willie is a lot more entertaining than that guy but um i also is that the same sandy that that vampire willow

[00:59:44] yes yes it is okay yeah i was like i think that's that's the girl from it's not the wish it's from um doppelganger land yeah when vampire willow like uh kills somebody named sandy at the bronze it's a nice little touch and then she becomes a vampire it's uh it's pretty funny um i uh i yeah riley i don't know i mean there are ways that he does fit in with the group really well he and xander have a

[01:00:10] have a really fun friendship the way they were at buffy's dorm like that was wrestling and teasing was like they were brothers it was adorable yeah but part of that was tara looking at them and seeing all that warmth um and love um a brotherly love it it was almost a plot device but it worked yeah and feeling like a little bit outside of it yes um but it was a very cute friendship and i was like oh i forgot how cute those two were together

[01:00:38] yes and that there was a part of xander that always sort of hero worships riley because he doesn't have a lot of male role models right his father is a nightmare giles constantly is like ugh little bug right he hated angel yeah right and i mean he he despises spike so and you know and he

[01:01:05] got along great with oz but it was always a little bit weird because of like the history with him and willow and stuff but he has like no complications about his feelings with riley it's like he feels completely comfortable in that friendship and riley is so used to camaraderie with other dudes like he falls into that relationship with xander very comfortably like yeah this is like i was with graham and forest like he's great and um you know he teases them and rags on him but it's all in good

[01:01:34] fun and um it's super cute i was like aww then when when they're like stop before you break something and then buffy's like or i break something and then they both stand at attention yeah like that is a serious threat i think um their relationship too has helped xander to grow like yeah this episode in particular the way he just went up to anya at the store again what did he say give me some sugar and he was so

[01:02:01] proud of her when she asked what kind of demon um yeah and you could just he almost seemed ashamed of her at the start of their relationship and he doesn't seem that way anymore and i think part of that is riley's influence yeah i don't remember which episode it is where they talk about it and and riley's like she might be kind of crazy but she she's in love with you yeah yeah and then he's like buffy doesn't love me and xander has this look on his face like like all the gears in his head are like

[01:02:30] finding new grooves like he's like oh yes yeah like i'm lucky compared to riley that's weird like i never thought about the world that way and i do think that he has turned a corner on ronya where he's like she's actually a real catch like she's beautiful and smart and funny and loves me seriously yeah like i love that whole um future xander there's a lot of setbacks but i i just his storyline um in

[01:02:59] the future which i won't spoil i just love the subtlety and he's he became one of my favorite characters to analyze they do a very good job writing he's turned a huge corner this season and starting in last season like a lot of his possessiveness of buffy and willow and jealousy and insecurity is is fading away and he's becoming more of an adult and it's really nice his prefrontal cortex is closer

[01:03:25] to being fully developed almost not quite 26 yet he's got a few years and he found a career that he's good at which goes a long way feeling like there's something that you can do well is one of the biggest confidence boosters that there is right instead of constantly trying to square peg round hole like when he was in school like in high school he constantly felt like i don't even know what i'm

[01:03:48] doing yeah my best friend is like the smartest person on earth and buffy has superpowers and i just keep getting d's in math like poor guy like giles is mean to me giles giles's treatment of xander is horrible but it's so funny like it's just over and over and over again he's just like oh you but i

[01:04:16] are we ready to talk about spike in this episode oh there's so much good spike stuff could i because i did you have something oh yeah i do i kind of want to circle back to the useful um oh yeah so i liked your perspective on tara's needing to feel useful we as humans needing to feel like we belong i kind of took it and something you just said penny too um how did you just say oh xander

[01:04:42] xander finding himself and being useful to society so when tara says i just never feel useful willow says you are essential but it reminded me of do you remember a little woman oh did you read the book yeah marmy at some point wants her kids she talks to the daughters and she's like i don't want you to marry for money i'd rather you be unmarried and happy blah blah blah blah all i want for my

[01:05:08] girls is to be useful and part of that is being part of a community and finding yourself in a community um not not because you need the self-esteem boost but just because we're all a family we're all kind of found family in a way to some degree or another stranger on the street can be a family member for one second um but i love it and i love how anya says i'm a useful part of society because she finally

[01:05:35] has found her place as a money maker but i i don't really remember my point to this but usefulness and community and just usefulness not isolation usefulness doesn't have to be about being a servant correct to others right and i think that tara grew up in a situation where she was expected to serve and

[01:05:56] that was her purpose but now in this new found family she has a use and a purpose that is on an equal level with the other members of the group where she's helpful to them as part of their ecosystem but also they're helpful to her and nobody is really a servant to anybody else like the closest

[01:06:24] to that is like giles is anya's boss but like yeah it's not a really overt like dominant submissive kind of relationship right it's like what are you doing i don't want to do that well and i think the money parts dina like the idea that it's relevant the idea that marmy was imparting especially for

[01:06:51] that century yeah the notion of usefulness doesn't necessarily come from your use in society she's encouraging this idea of self-acceptance and pursuing your own you know your your own peace and happiness for you for its own sake and then you become useful yes like that self-acceptance

[01:07:19] is such a big deal and for her girls to be able to hear that during that time is huge just like with tara the acceptance of her immediately even if she was a demon they were ready to accept her before the whole not really a demon thing happened buffy had already been like we're family and that matters that that notion of no matter what who you are and your happiness your sense of peace is

[01:07:47] more important than becoming useful to society and with little women it was more so you know you don't need to i think the quote there's one quote where she's talking about them being um essentially i'd rather you be unhappy old maids or something rather than that's the scene yeah they are happy old maids and not

[01:08:08] unhappy wives right and during that time especially being married and marrying well was essentially the the most of the time that i'm sure that she's going to be a part of the sense of women and how she's a part of the success in her life so what really is the biggest accomplishment a woman could have and she's saying no no like your your useful myth your success comes from within and with tara we see that here and that's reiterated time and time again in Buffy is acceptance of yourself, acceptance of others

[01:08:38] in that found family and that support system. So I can see, I like that parallel. Yeah. It's funny. I never would have thought we'd end up talking about little women on this podcast, but I think the message that the, that the, the little women get is that also not every person's purpose or usefulness is the same and it's okay to be a little bit different because the other thing

[01:09:01] that patriarchy tells women is that all women are meant to be wives and mothers and servants and women are all the same. It's your purpose. And problematic men, and there's tons of them on the internet are all like, men want this and women have to do that. And it's always like this idea that like all women are exactly the same. They all want the same thing. They're always like women all

[01:09:26] they always say all, all women want a guy who's over six feet tall and rich and has six figures. And it's like, that's clearly not true because there are women dating and married to and living with men of all different sizes, shapes, occupations. It's like, excuse me, I find Jack Black very attractive. And that would be true. Even if he was not a wealthy actor, right? Like it's not all women like the same thing and not all men like the same thing. That's the other thing that these men love to

[01:09:55] say on the internet. No man likes a woman with a tattoo. And I'm like, lots of men love tattoos. Like I beg. Yes. Like that's not necessarily true. But the idea of monolith and uniformity is very popular in the patriarchy. And the fact that Little Women at the time that it was written was already being like, not everybody has the same path in life. It's revolutionary. Yeah. That's why I was so obsessed with Joe.

[01:10:23] I haven't revisited that story in a very long time. Oh, you need to. Wasn't obsessed with Joe. Didn't everyone who read that book want to be Joe? To be Joe. Apparently not. Who do they want to be? Amy's kind of fun too. I don't know Amy's fun. That is true. In college, when we were reading and going over Little Women, I found a lot of people apparently didn't like Joe and thought she was some sort of antagonist in the story. And I was like, you don't understand it. Wow.

[01:10:52] This makes no sense to me. That's so funny. It was, we got, there were very heated discussions in our seminar. But that's, it's bizarre. Did they like Meg? Yeah. There was one girl, one girl in particular, Meg was her absolute favorite character. Meg could do no wrong. And I was like, are you joking? There's nothing wrong with Meg, but she's kind of boring. That's, I was like, your favorite? Like the one you like the most and the one you relate to the most?

[01:11:21] All right. Interesting. When you come to Massachusetts again, we're going to visit the Alcott House. Yeah, that's a good idea. That would be so fun. That's a good field trip for us. Sold. All right. Done deal. Okay. Okay. Spike. Sorry. We got way off track. My fault. Tangents are our brand. Yep. That's true. That's good. But, you know, at the end of the last episode, Out of My Mind, we see Spike kind of wake up

[01:11:49] from a dream and the realization like, oh no, there's something there for Buffy. And if you hadn't seen it before, you don't know the show, you might think like, oh, is he just like, is he just kind of attracted to her? Like, he's got a little crush going on. In this episode, it is very clear that this is a little bit deeper for Spike. Like, he cares about her well-being, at least to the point where he doesn't want invisible demons to kill her.

[01:12:19] Invisible to them. He's so conflicted about it, though. He's just like, damn it. Oh no, I have to save her. He goes there with the idea that he wants to get a good seat to watch them kill her. And then he's like, oh, I can't even do that. I have to help her. Oh man. It's so funny. And then when he's all like, upset that she doesn't acknowledge him because she, of course, she can't see him. Can't see him. But he's like, hey. Yeah. He's just like, sweetie, you're invisible. I'm so sorry.

[01:12:47] It's totally against his will. This is a great Spike episode. It really is. He has so many amazing moments. And so I kind of hate the scene where there's, first of all, there's a classic Buffyverse edit where Xander says to Buffy, like, oh, if you're stressed out, like, go train or stretch and, you know, you'll feel better. And then it cuts to Buffy and Spike fighting. And so you're like, oh, is this what she did to stretch and train? But no, it's Spike's fantasy.

[01:13:15] And then we see that he's literally having sex with Harmony while he's thinking about Buffy. And even after watching this many, many times and at my, you know, very adult age, I'm like, ew. And I have to look away from the screen. I did too. It's just so uncomfortable. It's really gross. But then you're like, well, it is Spike. Like, of course it's gross.

[01:13:39] Well, and the lines that are said during that scene are just kind of uncomfortable. Oh, yeah. And she's like, what were you thinking about, baby? And he's like, just you. Yeah. Just you. You're my little lamb. No, sir. One, if he is, he's allowing himself to get to that point and then going and interfering and saving Buffy. It's just like, oh, Spike's in trouble.

[01:14:08] It's so complicated for him. There's layers and layers of complications. Yes. It'd be interesting. I love it. It's one of my favorite plots of the whole series. Absolutely. And it's so deep. It's so deep. Yeah. He's different. He's not like other vampires. No. No. He's not. And he never has been. No. No. Like, even, you know, in season two when we first meet him and we start to understand his deep love and devotion to Drusilla. Oh, yeah.

[01:14:38] That's interesting. And then seeing his, like, antagonism with Angelus. That's interesting. And different. And then when he comes back in season three and he has that great line, I may be loves bitch, but I'm man enough to admit it. That's so cute. I think that was the moment that everyone who was on the fence about Spike was like, now I'm in love with him. Yeah. Yeah. You can't help it. You can't. And his relationship with Joyce is delightful. Yeah.

[01:15:04] When she's trying to comfort him about Drusilla and he's like, do you have any of those little marshmallows? She's like, let me check it out. Yeah. It's so cute. So he just, he's such a complicated character. And James Marsters is brilliant with the way he plays him. He was born for this role. Absolutely. I've seen him do an excellent job at a number of other roles. He was great as Brainiac on Smallville. He was great in Torchwood.

[01:15:32] Like, he's done other great performances, but nothing has come close to Spike. He embodies Spike. Perfect. Perfectly. And he clearly felt very strongly about Spike as well, which helps his performance. Yeah. But I just, poor Harmony. Oh my God. She does have a great moment. And of course I clipped it because it's one of my favorite Harmony moments of all time. Oh, it was so exciting. You wouldn't believe it.

[01:16:00] I went to April Fool's and absolutely everything was on sale. You paid for it? Oh, no. I just killed the clerk. Still, bargain's a bargain. Bargain's a bargain. Oh, I love her. The disdain in his voice. Yeah. Paid for it. And then when she's like, no, but a bargain's a bargain, the look on his face is like, oh, she's even stupider than I realized. It's like painful to him. Yeah. It's like, oh, buddy.

[01:16:31] I love Harmony so much. She's so dopey. She's so funny. And she's so absolutely 100% herself all the time. Oh, my God. I love her so much. Without a doubt. Oh, no. I killed the clerk. What are you, dumb Spike? Oh, God. Oh, yeah. This is a great Spike episode. He has so many funny moments. Yeah. Like we talked about, the punching Tara in the nose thing was so funny.

[01:17:01] It was appalling and perfect. Oh, yeah. It's like, I'm helping you here. It is very handy. Like, immediately. Like, they probably obviously knew she wasn't a demon and it was just her family being bigots, essentially. I don't think anyone else knew. I think the others were not hip to that. Well, I mean, once Anya said, which kind? Oh, I think they- And they hesitated. It's just like, oh, okay. Yeah.

[01:17:30] Like, maybe she's like, what is going on here? Spike puts it together immediately. And they obviously know it is a surefire way if he can punch her in the face and it hurts him. She's not a demon. Yeah. And it asks, I mean, he was very helpful in this episode. He solved that question right away. And yeah, I think they all were like, something's not right. But I don't think they had put it together as fast and he put it together immediately. Like, they were like- You know, Anya was like, let's just narrow it down.

[01:18:01] Yeah. Like, why are you avoiding the question? Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. And Anya was so cute in that moment when she was like, and some could be valuable members of society. She's so proud of her. It's adorable. Anya in the magic shop is just, it's one of my favorite things in the entire series. Every, the pride she gets from it, her, the humor that comes from it, her love of money. Yeah. It's just, oh, it's so good.

[01:18:30] I just want to do the money parts. Like, oh my God, she's so great. I can't. There's one Anya quote that I am always tempted to say over and over again, but we have not done that episode yet. So I have to resist. Yeah. You can say it during the spoiler section later. No, I'm curious. I mean, it doesn't give anything away. It's just a vocal tick of mine that I've had for 20 years. It's really hard not to say it. Say it.

[01:19:00] Say it. Say it. Pressure. It's just, no, it's literally just that I'm Anya. Oh. That's it. Over and over. That episode's not that long from now. We're getting close to it. I am so excited. But she just, Emma Caulfield is brilliant. And I wish she was in more. Yeah. And was allowed to show off her comedic chops because her timing is impeccable. She's really very good.

[01:19:27] So we did get to spend a little bit of time with our new big bad, this unknown demon woman. And first she stops one of these truly creepy and disgusting looking demons with like slashes on their face and like long tongues for some reason from, it looks like it's hunting Ben. She grabs it and then she's like, I need you to do something. And then it's hilarious.

[01:19:51] The demon wakes up chained to a clothing rack that has like fur coats on it and stuff, which is so funny. And then we get to see her in her fabulous closet. And I'm like, ooh, look at all the pretty colors. Like, I want a closet like that. That's awesome. Yeah. I would not chain a demon up in my fabulous closet, but she did, which was hilarious.

[01:20:14] And then we get this absolutely fantastic moment when she's like, you know, who, like, she's like, who was I fighting? Here it is. Blonde. Short. Strong for a human. And massively rude. Broke my shoe. Took my monk. Do you have any idea who I'm talking about? Took my monk. No. A slayer? Oh, God. Please don't tell me I was fighting a vampire slayer.

[01:20:44] How unbelievably common. If I had friends and they heard about this and, you know, she's going around telling everybody, I mean, she's probably just pay attention. I am great and I am beautiful. And when I walk into a room, all eyes turn to me because my name is a holy name and you will listen. Get your friends. Find the girl. Kill the girl. Okay, baby?

[01:21:16] She has no problem with self-esteem. No. Not at all. I love everything about that scene. I think it's, and it's not much. That's pretty much all we got of her in this episode. And it's plenty to move that story along. She's so funny. She's not named yet, right? Right. Okay. Although one of our voicemails from like two weeks ago dropped the name and I'm sorry. Okay. For that.

[01:21:43] But she's not named yet in the show. Right. Um, but, uh, the idea that when she's like, if I had friends. Yeah. That's so cute. And they heard about this. It's so funny to me. Like that she cares about appearances, even though she doesn't have anyone to impress. Yeah. It's like, that would be so embarrassing. It's just, it works so well in this show.

[01:22:08] And she's so, so different from every other like big bad or villain or anybody that we've had on the show, but it's kind of delightful. It's a nice little change. The contrast of her hyper femininity and all of the clothes that we see in her closet are like furs and satin and silk and shiny. And there's like delicate straps and high heels and, and everything about her visual presentation

[01:22:36] tells you she should be like, you know, sipping mimosas at a trendy restaurant. Yep. And then she's like, look at me when I talk to you. And she's so comfortable. And this like disgusting looking demon in the middle of all of this beautiful clothing and with glory, like, and I was like, I don't know what to call her. And with her. Yeah.

[01:23:04] She just, she's stunning herself and the comfort that she feels with just kind of reaching out and grabbing this demon's face and talking with it. She shows no hesitation. She shows no like discomfort in the slightest. She seems confident as hell, which is kind of terrifying. And she's like, okay, who are you lady? Yeah. She's incredibly strong.

[01:23:33] And like you said, so bold and so aggressive and like, and then she's like, oh, she's also insane. Right. She's the cutest little separating sword. Okay. Anybody ever tell you that? It's like, oh my God. She's not all there. Yeah. Ah. It's like, are you? What's going on? It's like, what's your story? Oh, she's so scary. Yeah. She's brilliant. I love her. And it's, it's, yeah, it's a great performance from Claire Kramer.

[01:24:02] And, um, you know, whenever people are playing like, who's your favorite Buffy villain, it's a really hard game. That is a hard game. Really fantastic villains. But she's always up there for me. Who is your favorite Buffy? Unless it's a spoiler, I guess. We can. Um, it's probably Angelus. Yeah. That's what I was leaning towards. But like, I mean, the mayor is amazing. Spike is amazing. I don't, we were talking about villains. I don't know him anymore.

[01:24:30] Spike didn't even go through like the Rolodex in my head. Yeah. Faith is an amazing villain. Yes. Um, you know, for many of the same reasons that I, I like this villain is that she is visibly, physically of a size with Buffy and has the same kind of visual presentation of like small, pretty woman.

[01:24:53] And so it's just fun to see her defy stereotypes and be like terrifying and mean and insane and evil. Yes. And the same with like Faith. Faith really was a foil to Buffy. She was like, what if Buffy was bad? And this villain is just like. Bad. Bad. Yeah. Bad. And badass. And she's so funny. Yeah. I love her. Yeah. I think she's definitely my favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:25:23] It's hard. It's hard to top Angelus because of just how personal it was. Yeah. Yeah. But she's, she's great in a different way. That's really great. And I love the mayor because he was so funny. Like avuncular. Yes. And I love getting to use the word avuncular. That's what the Tara said a word in her spell. I had to write it down. Uh, obeisance. Oh, obeisance. I couldn't. I didn't know how to pronounce that word. And I still don't apparently, but I'm like, oh.

[01:25:52] I'm learning new words still. Yeah. It is. I like when I have to learn new words. Um, it makes me happy. Uh, it means that I'm around people who are, who are smart in ways that I am not smart. And that makes me happy. It's good. I already talked about it a little bit. So I'll just start with the fact that the demon design on those layoff demons is fantastic. So visceral. Ugh. The tongue. The tongue. Ugh. It's so gross. And it's thick and ugh. Yep. Yeah. Very uncomfortable. Yeah. Very good.

[01:26:21] I like the outfits. Tara's outfit. Willow's outfits. Yeah. There was good clothes in this episode. It's true. Buffy's blue eye shadow. Yeah. This is one of the first episodes where there's been like a second where I find Xander kind of attractive. Yes. You know, like why? I think it's his confidence.

[01:26:47] Like he is, he is projecting more self-assuredness, which is automatically attractive. Yeah. He's not as physically twitchy. He used to be sort of jumpy. Yep. He's calmer. He's, he's growing into himself. Oh my God. Yeah. And I like his slightly longer floppy hair. Yeah. It's cute. Yeah. It's cute. Ugh. Jeez. Um. Let's see.

[01:27:13] The, oh, this is sort of a joke about last week's episode, but the, the birthday party at the end actually looked fun. Yeah. It did. The birthday party that we talked about on, on, um, Angel, uh, season two episode, what was that? Guys will be guys. Not a fun birthday party. Looked horrible and boring and sad. I mean, human sacrifice or attempted human sacrifice. Yeah. Are they old enough to drink? No. I don't think, I mean, Riley is.

[01:27:42] Riley and Giles. But that's it. I was just like, huh. I think the rest of them are either 19 or 20. Yeah. But they were all drinking. And then. I mean, there are some bars that will serve. Yeah. Yeah. This is the bronze. I don't think there's a lot of rules of the bronze. It's like, oh, no one killed us this week. Let's have fun. That's true. When John is like, only losers drink alcohol. And then they're all like. That was cute.

[01:28:09] That's like what you were talking about before we started the show about little kids saying these strange adult truths. Yeah. Like, oh, okay. Call us out. You're right. Only losers drink alcohol. Just be over here having my loser juice. Like, I'll see you later. That's funny. So cute. Yeah. The birthday party looked really fun. I was like, I would happy. I would happily go to that party. And like when Dawn gives her the broom. Like, that was so funny. Yes. That was cute. I love that. We should just pop right in there. Yeah. Adorable. Really cute.

[01:28:38] I had a thought when Buffy comes back to the house and Riley's like, I put away all your stuff. You know, you never even know you were gone. And she's like, oh, you're the god of boyfriends. I was like, what does Riley do when he's not being Buffy's boyfriend? Yes. Yes. Does he have a job? I don't think he has any hobbies anymore. Or it's like, did he graduate? I think he plays basketball. But like, other than that, like, was he ever actually a student? I don't know. I don't think he was actually a student. But then how was he?

[01:29:07] Oh, he was Professor Walsh's TA. So I guess I wouldn't. Huh. Like, I don't know. And we still don't really know how old he is. Is he a grad student? Was he meant to be a senior? Like, how old is Riley? It's all very fuzzy. But like, it suddenly hit me. Like, no wonder he wants to wrap all of his purpose up in Buffy. And all he thinks about is whether or not Buffy loves him the way he wants to be loved. Like, dude doesn't have anything else to do. Right. Oh, man. Get a job, man. Yeah.

[01:29:37] He's got to get a hobby, too. And he lives in that weird apartment that has a clear door. I hate that. Yes. That's weird. I would be okay for me. No. I would not. I would immediately need to cover that. Like, people get, his bed is in the same room with the glass front door. That's creepy. Oh, that's really creepy. I wouldn't sleep. Because vampires. Yeah. And also just weird people. Yes. Too. That's true.

[01:30:02] But, you know, that goes back to how you, like, there's this song by, you remember World Party? You probably don't care. That rings a bell. I forgot the name. It all come true. And one of the lyrics in it says, you have to look inside for who you are or else you'll just need to make possessions of the stars. I'm screwing that up. But he's not looking. He's Buffy's his star. That's all. That's all he knows. That's his value. The man needs external validation like crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:31] And also, like we were saying, finding a use and feeling purposeful. Right now, his entire purpose is supporting Buffy and it's not sufficient. No. And he is very uncomfortable with it, even though he wants it to be enough. And like, I mean, Xander has his construction job. Giles has the shop. Anya now has a job. Like, Buffy's a student and she has her mom. And Willow has Tara and being a student. And like, Riley just has Buffy. Yeah.

[01:31:01] Yeah. Like, no wonder he's drinking at a demon bar. Like, he needs, like, go get a job at a bookstore or something, man. Oh, that sounds fun. Like, this is Sunnydale. There must be job openings all the time. That's true. Because he would just die. Oh, gosh. I'm sure he could have been a cop. That could have been very interesting. That would have been a good path for him. Right? It makes logical sense to me. That would be a career that he, a lot of ex-military guys go into police work. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:31:31] Which is not always the best thing, but sometimes it works out. I mean, it makes sense. There's problems. We could get into a long conversation about what the problems are with that. We don't need to do that. In the scene when Buffy is, like, stretching in the back room at the magic shop and before the demons attack, I have that scene burned into my brain, living, as people say, rent-free in my head.

[01:31:55] And every time I feel my age in my body and I'm like, oh, ow, I think about how Sarah Michelle Gellar was able to bend all the way backwards with her knees flat on the ground like that and arms over her head. I'm like, how did her knees not break? How is she doing that? I couldn't do that when I was, like, 16. No. So. No. No. That's, like, high, advanced yogi behavior. Yeah.

[01:32:23] Although part of my spinal cord is attached to my tailbone, so I can't touch my toes. Oh, yeah. Either. That's weird. It's very strange. That is strange. Does it hurt? Only if I try to touch my toes too much. Like, I remember one of my PE teachers and my volleyball coach and my taekwondo instructor, when we would be stretching, they would, like, come up behind you and try to push you down further. And I was like, you don't understand. This does nothing. That just hurts.

[01:32:53] You're not helping me. And then it wasn't until, like, 15 years later when I got an MRI and found out about that little work. I was like, oh, this explains so much. Yeah. Oh, God. That sounds painful. Good job. In the final, final moment at the birthday party when Tara and Willow have that nice moment when Tara's like, I thought you'd be ashamed. And Willow's like, you know, that's dumb. I'm proud. And then they hug and they're floating.

[01:33:22] It's really funny because the song that's playing keeps singing, I can't take my eyes off you. And just, I noticed, like, it's one of the few moments in the whole episode when they're not looking at each other. That's funny. Their heads are on each other's shoulders looking in opposite directions. And then in the background, it's like, can't take my eyes off you. Can't take my eyes off you. Can't take my eyes off you. I was like, that's just a funny mismatch. I think that's cheeky. Because everything about them floating and hugging is beautiful and, like, loving.

[01:33:49] And just because the song says can't take my eyes off you, I was like, oh, they could have picked a different song. That's funny. Irony. Yeah. Oh, jeez. So Amy Adams, this was 2000. And right around the same time, she guested also on Smallville and Charmed. And I was like, when did Amy Adams become, like, a known actor, like, whose name was in things? And it was 2005, she was nominated for an Oscar for Junebug. And then her career was, like, off to the races.

[01:34:19] Yeah. Junebug was, like, a little independent film. And that was totally the career she had up until that point was, like, smaller films, guest star spots on TV shows. And then Junebug just, like, shot her into the atmosphere. Wow. You might have to watch that again. Yeah. She also, interestingly, at around the same time, there was a Cruel Intentions 2. And she played the Catherine Mertweil role, which was Sarah Michelle Gellar's role in the original movie. That was kind of funny. Oh, interesting.

[01:34:49] Fun trivia. Shall we move on to some pop and not pop culture references? Sure. Dina, take it away. Woohoo. Okay. This one is Xander about Duffy's dorm. Buffy's dorm. You've got the two entrances. A lot of opportunity for bawdy French farce. A farce is a light theater piece with characters and events exaggerated to produce broad, simple humor.

[01:35:16] A common bit in farces is to have characters coming in and out of multiple doors in a set, generally unbeknownst to each other. A prime example is Michael Franz's, I hope I said that right, hilarious farce about a farce, Noises Off. That is my all-time favorite play. Really? I've never seen it. I haven't either. There's a movie with, oh my God, like John Ritter, Michael Caine is in it. I don't know.

[01:35:45] Carol Burnett, like a ton of. Oh, wow. It is hysterical. Especially, I mean, John Ritter was brilliant. But Noises Off, if you ever have a chance to see it live, go. Okay. It is hilarious. Didn't Laverne and Shirley have two doors? That sounds right. That provided comedy. I think they did. I think they did too. Shamil. Shamil. We're in Incorporated. We're gonna do it.

[01:36:17] That's our age. In our head. I watched that on Nick at Night. Oh, God. I watched it live. I'm sorry. I did too. I'm very sorry. Anyway, Buffy about, well, what should I call her? Somebody. Yeah. The demon. No, she's not a demon. Our new villain. And I won't say it. Ironwood woman. Yes. She said, so any breakthrough on the identity of Miss Congeniality.

[01:36:44] And Miss Congeniality is an award given out to, or given out at beauty pageants and a movie that would come out on December 22nd, 2000, starring Sandra Bullock just a few months after this, or one month after this episode aired. And the award is voted on by the contestants themselves and goes to the most friendly and sociable contestant. Usually Miss Congeniality doesn't win the pageant. Yeah. It's kind of a consolation prize. Yeah. That's a great movie.

[01:37:13] That's a fun movie. Very underrated movie. Yeah. Really. Very funny. It's one of my brother's favorite movies, and that's one of my favorite things about him. That is a random fact about your brother. Yeah. Whenever a dating website asks, what's your idea of a perfect date? I always write April 25th. Oh, that's what it is. What is? And it's a little bit of a litmus test because there are people who are like, ha, ha, ha, because all you need is a light jacket. And then like as a response to it.

[01:37:42] And then there are people who are like, oh, what about April 25th makes it your favorite? And I'm like, oh, you didn't see the movie. Thank you. Xander says, oh, that was a tangled web of lies, sweetie. This is attributed to Sir Walter Scott, who was alive from 1771 to 1832, a British writer. And the full quote is, oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

[01:38:08] Buffy mentions a really cute sweater she saw at Bloomie's using the nickname for the luxury department store Bloomingdale's. For some reason, when I say Bloomie's, I have to say it. Bloomie's. I don't know why. That seems more fun. Yeah. All right. Moving on to a little bit of trivia. Kara? In the original script, JW wrote this in the scene where the team is helping Buffy move. He said, quote unquote, Tara is in the closet, in parentheses. No jokes, please.

[01:38:38] I'm kind of glad they cut that. I know. It's like, it's not. Too obvious. Yes. This was also cut before leaving the magic box for the first time. Donnie made an observation holding a skull. Didn't Uncle Jeff have a scar like this? He could have been dug up. And then Mr. McClay says, Donald. And then I'll see you tonight to Tara. I'm glad they cut that out too. Yeah. Random. It doesn't work. No. Oh, here we go with the fact that we. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was wondering about this.

[01:39:08] Sandy, the vampire Riley talks to in Willie's place is the same actress as the girl vampire Willow, but in Doppelgangland. Always fun. And this is the first time that we learned Tara's surname, which is McClay. And looking that up, it was a Scottish and Irish name that derives from the Gaelic phrase Mac and Lay, which I'm probably butchering, meaning son of the physician or son of the healer. These people do not have healer energy. No.

[01:39:38] But Tara does. Yes. Yes. Which is kind of nice. Yeah. They don't use her last name much. I know in future episodes they continue to not use it, which is funny because everybody else's last name gets thrown around all the time. Yeah. It's true. What's Sanders last name again? Harris. Duh. Harris. People call him Harris. My brain is not working today. Yeah, that's all right. Who needs to go on? All right. Tara jokes. Yeah. You learn her source and we'll introduce her to her insect reflection.

[01:40:07] That was funny if you studied Taglarin mythic rites and then she says, and are a complete dork. That's cute. Taglarin mythic rites involved a person and their center of powers and significance according to the karmic cycle. The rites would show different reactions of a person depending on how significant they were. An insect reflection would mean that the person was insignificant. I love when she's like, and are a complete dork. And Riley says, then why didn't Xander get it? Yes.

[01:40:36] That was perfect. That's also very like close friend, sibling. Yes. Yeah. That's such a brother moment. And then Xander's like, oh, I don't know that Taglarin stuff. Like completely comfortable with the whole moment. Gross. Oh, and here's the trivia that I previewed. Sarah Michelle Gellar starred in Cruel Intentions 1999 and Amy Adams, who guest starred, played in Cruel Intentions 2 2000 as the same character Gellar played in the original.

[01:41:06] That's so neat. I love that. I kind of hope they do a Cruel Intentions 3 where they like revisit like the next generation. That'd be so fun. There's a TV show, but that. Oh, that's right. It was. I heard it was bad. It was not good. It was mainly, it took like all of the graphic aspects of Cruel Intention and none of the intelligence and. Yeah, that sounds like TV. Yeah. All right. All right. It's time. I got to ask the question. I know it's a hard question.

[01:41:37] Does it still slay? Dina, what do you think? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No doubt. Kara? I would have to agree with Dina. It's still spot on. It's one of the best episodes that I feel like we've seen in a while. How about you, Penny? Oh, it's 100% slay. It's one of my favorite episodes of the whole series. I will never get over Buffy turning around and being like, you just got to go through me. It's like one of my favorite moments. So sweet.

[01:42:07] It's so good. And also Spike being like, oh, you're a piece of work. I like you. I like you. It's really such a Hallmark episode, like Hallmark channel episode without the cheese. I let you know. There are some warm and fuzzies. I tear up every single time. Like even when you were playing the clip of Buffy saying like, you've got to go through me. I was like, damn it. Yeah. It's really sweet. Gets to me. Kara, do you want to talk about this?

[01:42:37] Not exactly news, but news either. So when I was looking up the news for this week, it was back on August 18th when I was doing this search and I came across an essay that was adapted from a keynote address that was given on July 10th this year at the Association for the Study of Buffy's 11th Biennial Slayage Conference. That's a mouthful. Yeah. And I was not aware of this conference.

[01:43:05] I looked it up and it seems incredibly interesting and fairly academic, which I wasn't expecting, but I shouldn't be surprised. I think Buffy lends itself to academic analysis very easily. And this essay is just so beautifully written. It's essentially an examination of grief and how Buffy as a show handles grief. And I'm not going to spoil anything.

[01:43:34] There are a lot of spoilers if you have not finished season five, basically. Or the whole series and all of Angel. Yes, and all of Angel. So if you are a Buffy fan and you've seen everything, give it a read. If you care about spoilers, maybe bookmark this one for later because I think it absolutely is worth reading.

[01:43:57] And it was one of the most vulnerable essays that I've read in terms of a discussion of grief and bereavement. And it's such an important topic in Buffy and one of the things that so many people cite Buffy for in either helping them process their own feelings. It's just I don't want to spoil anything, but it is a very powerful essay.

[01:44:23] I looked up other speeches from the author of the essay, the person who gave the speech. Her name is Emily Temple. So if you feel like going down a rabbit hole, it's a great one to go down. Give it a read. But beware, it is incredibly spoiler heavy. Yeah, it fully assumes that you've seen every episode of both Buffy and Angel. But it's a great read. I read it today and I thought it was really moving and really well written. And we'll link it in the show notes.

[01:44:52] It also made me cry. That's not hard. Honestly. I mean, it's about grief. Yeah. Talking about all the saddest parts of these shows. So, yeah. Are you guys thirsty? I'm a little thirsty. I could use a beer. Bronze things. Things of bronze. We have a couple of voicemails this week from Steve and Karen. We'll start with Steve. Hello, Stossland. This is Steve. I'm about to watch Buffy's Vampire Slayer family.

[01:45:22] How big is this dorm room that they live in? Well, I mentioned Buffy's father. First time in however long it's been. He's in Spain with his secretary. Now is Buffy moving out of the dorm? I don't understand what's happening here. Okay. So she's moving back to the home to take care of mom. Gotcha. Oh, and Tara just does not feel like she fits in. Ew. What is this ugly creature that's... Oh, there's Glory. The creature's going after Dr. Ben. Glory was kind of like Cordelia, actually. How is Spike fighting her without getting a headache? And what is this going on? Is this another of Spike's dreams? Oh, yeah.

[01:45:52] I'm going to see another one of Spike's dreams. Oh, he's with... And he's with Harmony. Yeah. But he's dreaming about Buffy. And that Hurricanrana was really impressive. And now who is this guy in the magic shop? Oh, Tara's brother. And this is the title. Family comes from Tara's family. That was not a pleasant interaction between Tara and her family. This is the problem. I don't remember how this all resolves itself. Because Buffy's just treating her like she's glass. Dawn, I mean. But she's not telling anybody why. And so it just sounds crazy.

[01:46:21] Oh, now her dad is at her dorm room. The huge dorm room that has witch stuff in it. Okay, so Glory kidnapped this ugly ass demon. And for some reason. Oh, but she knows what a vampire slayer is. Glory is just a trip. Okay, I don't remember this. What spell is Tara trying to cast on them? Oh, and now here we have Riley at the demon bar drinking alone. Oh, the lay act demon is recruiting to go kill Buffy. And now Harmony has just told Spike. And he's going to go tell Buffy.

[01:46:47] No, her spell means that Willow's not able to see the demons at all. And I'm starting to remember now because she thinks she's part demon. Oh, but Buffy can't see him. But her slayer sense is telling her something. Oh, she can't see Spike either. Okay, so Buffy killed one. And did Spike kill the other one? I'm getting choked up here. Buffy, you got to go through me. We're family. Yeah, I love it. Raises her hand. I love Spike. There's no demon in there. And now it's party time. Oh, and they're floating.

[01:47:17] All right. On it next week. I forgot about them floating. That is so cute. It's really, really cute. And yeah, we didn't talk about the scene where Riley calls Buffy out acting crazy. When she's like, I don't want you hanging out with Melinda. She's short. And then I'm looking at Buffy. I'm like, aren't you five, too? Like, come on. That's funny. Riley is hilarious. He's like, yeah, a lot of young people are experimenting with shortness these days.

[01:47:48] Oh, my God. That's good stuff. Thanks, Steve. That was great. And we heard from Karen. Hey, still slaying. It's Karen. A quick note on guys will be guys, which is just Wesley finding a little more confidence, although he's not confident. He has confidence. Anyway, that was fun.

[01:48:10] Family is definitely one of my favorite Buffy episodes, just because, you know, I can, Tara is like, you know, she's socially awkward and all this. And for an extroverted person, I was also socially awkward. And you don't know sometimes. Do people really like me? Do they really feel this way?

[01:48:34] You spend a lot of your time as a teen, you know, just sort of trying to figure that out and feel it out because you feel awkward. So you feel like people don't really like you. And so that whole scene with Tara really resonates with me. I love that Dawn is immediately the second person to step up for her because Dawn had that

[01:48:58] little bit with Tara in the first Dawn episode where, you know, Tara's just like, yeah, we can hang out here. We're not quite Scoobies and we're Scooby adjacent or whatever it is that she says. And I love that Dawn basically is like, oh, yeah, Tara's just like one of us and doesn't question it for a second. And the fact that everybody else steps in when really from Tara's point of view, she doesn't feel it is kind of awesome.

[01:49:28] And and again, Spike's solution is just perfectly Spike, you know, violent, but, you know, to the point straight to the point. He's very much like he doesn't have time for this crap. And I kind of love that. But yeah, like now Tara's one of the family, definitely. And and I kind of love that for her.

[01:49:56] That's all I'm really going to say today. All right. Bye. No. Bye, Karen. Thank you. Nice. Karen and Steve. You guys are already entered into our Polly Pocket giveaway. So congratulations on that. All right. That's the end of the main section of the podcast. Stay tuned for the Watcher's Diaries at the end if you want to hear a little bit of spoilery talk. If you'd like to join the conversation, you can find all of our contact information at

[01:50:24] podcastica.com and in the show notes for each episode. Also at podcastica.com, you'll find links to our social media pages and all of our other shows. So what are you guys watching, reading, listening to lately that is of interest? Dina, what are you listening to or watching? Well, I don't know if it's of interest, but I just subscribe to PBS to watch some documentaries. I love that. I do.

[01:50:51] And I found the show that I watched years ago, The Durals of Corfew, which is never heard of it. It's a true story about this family after World War II. They leave England and go to Corfew to start a new life. And it's based on the true diaries of the youngest child. And it's quirky and fun and gentle. And it's three seasons. And it just takes you away from this world. So I'm indulging in that. It is nice. And I'm watching Treme too on HBO.

[01:51:21] Oh my gosh. I love that show. Yeah. That one. And that's about it. I mean, just, you know, I'm watching Dead City, which I told Penny before. It's enjoyable. It's not brilliant, but. I watched the first season and never picked up the second. This one's good. It's much better, but it's still not gripping. What about you, Kara? What are you watching?

[01:51:46] Mine is the opposite of something light that helps you forget about what's going on right now. So last night I started a show called Utopia. It's a British TV series. It came out in 2013 or I think 2013. I heard it's excellent. Yes. It, I watched five episodes last night. There are six in the first season and there are six in the second season.

[01:52:15] I was up until 3am, which is not normal for me because I could not stop watching this show. It is a kind of conspiracy thriller puzzle box show. And in general, the concept is without spoiling anything significant. There is a graphic novel named Utopia.

[01:52:38] And mysteriously, there are lots of things depicted in that novel that seem to forecast the future. And it turns out there is a second manuscript floating out there for a part two. And there are a few groups trying to get their hands on it.

[01:53:01] And each episode, this whole thing, it just goes deeper and deeper and further and higher. I don't want to spoil a thing. But I would definitely recommend watching it if you are into any sort of puzzle box shows. I think Dark, if you've watched that on Netflix, if you enjoy From, Lost, anything like that. I think this lends itself to your interests.

[01:53:31] So give it a try if you haven't. It has a huge cult following. And I've been trying to stay off of the internet so I don't spoil myself. But I haven't been this entranced by a TV show in a while. Even 12 Monkeys. I love 12 Monkeys. But this is something else. Speaking of puzzle box shows, season three of Silo just wrapped. Yes. And the finale was Starlings.

[01:54:00] And I have read like one and a half of the books. So I knew some of the stuff that was going to happen, but not all of the stuff that was going to happen. So it was really fun. And then I immediately started reading the books again. Nice. After the finale. I was like, all right. I'm trying to wait to read them until season four is finished. But yeah. I was like, I need to know. So I've been reading that and really enjoyed watching the show. And I'm really enjoying Lanterns.

[01:54:31] There's been three episodes of it so far. I'm not like crazy about Lanterns, but I do enjoy it. Green Lantern has never been a character that interested me at all. But if the show is good, it doesn't matter. It's like I never liked Captain America until the MCU movies. And then I was like, oh, it's so interesting. And then I went and bought a Captain America comic book. And I was like, nope, still boring. The movies that are good.

[01:54:56] I think those movies are probably my favorite Marvel movies. Yeah. They're really great. The Captain America movies are truly great. And I loved Peacemaker. And that's not the TV show. And I never would have been interested in that character. But the show was really good. So it's just quality trumps content all the time. Yeah. Absolutely. It's fair.

[01:55:20] And if you like what we're doing, please give us a five-star rating or a review or a like, follow, subscribe, tell your friends, whatever it takes. Next time we're going to be covering Ruffy Season 5, Episode 7, Fool for Love. Thanks, everyone. And... So, all these books got spells on them? Turn people into frogs? Things like that? Yeah. We're building a race of frog people. It's a good time.

[01:55:51] That does sound like a good time. The frog people. It does. All right. That is the end of the non-spoiler section. And if you want to avoid spoilers, stop listening right now. It's too bad we can't sneak a look at the Watcher Diaries and read up on Angel. I'm sure it's full of fun facts to know and tell. Yeah. That's too bad. That stuff is private. Also, Giles keeps them in his office in his personal files.

[01:56:20] Most importantly, it would be wrong. All right. Spoiler time. What do you guys want to spoil for people if they're still listening? Oh, my gosh. It's so hard not to say glory. Glory, glory, glory. Yes. Glory. Because she is so unsettling and terrifying. And we've barely gotten started with her. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, oh, gosh.

[01:56:50] It's glorious. It's so good. I love her so much. It's so good. Well, and just, I don't know. I think rewatching it, knowing what's coming just makes every scene with her feel more ominous. Even when they're not really that serious or they're played more comedically, there's always just kind of a pit in my stomach. Yeah. Knowing how this season ends.

[01:57:20] That it actually kind of enhances the rewatch. Yes. Yeah. You know, like there's more tension there just because it's like, oh, okay, this is not just another big bad that Buffy's going to defeat and everything's going to be fine. This is one of the first ones that truly gives her a run for her money. And it's just, it's so unsettling watching how innocent she seems. Like, yeah, there are a few things. Like, she's definitely unusually strong.

[01:57:49] She doesn't seem grossed out by that disgusting demon. But knowing how powerful she is and knowing that she's a freaking god, I'm just like, okay, let's get going. This is going to get better. Very intense. Very quickly. And. Oh, go. Oh, I always have in my head from whatever. I think it's from the episode Counterpoint, which, as we've talked about, it's one of my favorite episodes.

[01:58:16] It's when, I think it's Xander who goes, she's a crazy hell god? Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, oh, great. Because hell god was bad enough. Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. And I think it's Tara who goes, she's a. She's a brain eater. Yeah. That, the, the, watching her. Yeah. Like, stick her fingers. And it's so. Oh, so disturbing.

[01:58:44] It's so uncomfortable to watch. But it just, it's, it's so creative too. Because she really is unlike any other villain that we've seen before, which is terrifying. You don't know what to expect with her. And the power. It's nice that they kind of leveled up and made her a god. Because we've dealt with, you know, the most, we've dealt with the master. That was season one.

[01:59:10] We've dealt with Angelus, who was this legendary evil vampire. They had to kind of step it up a bit. And this will do it. This, this does it. But other than that, I cannot wait until Fool for Love and Darla. Those are two of my favorite episodes. And they might be like three and four on my rankings that I haven't taken too seriously to nail down. But they are way up there. Yeah.

[01:59:40] It was really hard. This is why it was spoiler section for me. The whole Fool for Love. I almost wish we could have done both. Yeah. Because I feel like, you know, Spikes lusting after Buffy, blah, blah, blah. But like we mentioned, this was the first time against his will he went to protect her. Yeah. And it's just the start. And then you go into Fool for Love. And I won't get into it because I know you will. But you see who he was as a human. I know. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. Oh, it's so good.

[02:00:09] And I went to the college with the guy he Spikes. Oh, really? That's great. I had a crush on him. I had a crush on him. But I did. That's cute. But, you know, he becomes, he puts armor on himself. And he becomes someone he's not. But then he is that person. He's our Spike, as he is now. But I think his growing love for Buffy makes, he comes around full circle. He evolves back into what he was and then into something better.

[02:00:37] It's almost like his version of being a vampire makes him a better human. Yeah. By the end. And it's the last episode. I think it's the last episode. Yeah. Watching him. Oh. Yeah. Oh, with this, the episode, it's either the, it might be the penultimate episode of the series or the final episode where he goes to a poetry, like an open mic. Oh, my God. That's right. Oh, yes.

[02:01:03] This is poetry that he reveals in the Fool for Love episode is the first time we hear that he was a poet. And it's like, it's actually not bad. No, I love him. And the twist on his nickname, William the Bloody, relating back to when he was a human and he was just bloody awful at poetry is one of my favorite little narrative. Of course. Wonderful. And it's, it's a theme that I think about a lot.

[02:01:29] And, and it's so funny because I've been listening to my old Rings of Power podcasts. And on those podcasts, I talk a lot about how histories and legends are not accurate, right? Like what gets handed down over time is a distillation, an interpretation, an editorial on what happened. And there's facts mixed with, with opinion, mixed with like omissions.

[02:01:57] And then when you add like language translations and all that stuff into it, what you end up with is rarely a completely accurate view of history. And Spike's name is such a great example of it. Like when we first learned about Spike in season two, and they're like, oh, he's called William the Bloody. It's because he wanted to drive railroad spikes through people's heads. But it's like these mean society people are like, oh, his poetry is so bad. I want to drive a railroad spike. Like what?

[02:02:26] It's just this illustration of the way that history is not a representation of reality all the time. And that you can't trust everything that you hear about what has happened in the past. I love, I love that whole story. I'm excited for next week. So sorry. Yeah. So much fun. Well, and the fact that at all, and we'll talk about it more, but the fact at all that he is essentially giving Buffy tips on how not to die and not to be killed. It's like, huh. But he can't help but be kind of a jerk about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[02:02:56] He has to. He's not quite there yet. He's not fully, fully redeemed. And also his affection for Buffy is not out in the open. So he's struggling with it. And later this season, it'll be out in the open. And he'll just be like, yeah, I love you. What of it? And he'll stop fighting himself about it all the time. Oh my God. I forgot about that episode. Crush. Oh yeah. Oh dear. There's a crash. No, crush.

[02:03:25] Crash is a different one. Crash is in season six. That's right. That one. Holy hell. Yeah. Well, let's not even talk about that one. Nope. Yeah. Riley and Sandy are going to go to an interesting place. Oh, Riley. That's sad. Her story is sad. So is Riley's. Yeah. Riley is sad. They just, it's, it's very dark.

[02:03:52] Like, I feel like that is honestly one of the darkest places this show goes with that storyline. Yeah. Yeah. I remember Willow has a problem with drugs, drug magic at some point. But yeah. The Riley storyline, the weird addiction in the drug den and that felt dirty and real. Yeah. The like vaguely prostitute vampire women. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really grimy. And Buffy is like thoroughly disgusted by it.

[02:04:22] And it's, that's going to be a fun one to talk about. Oh yeah. I think it's going to be a long one. Yeah. We'll have a lot to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else? Um, I just have one about Tara. Oh yeah. With, you know, we said before, uh, Willow's like you are essential and. That's nice.

[02:04:48] But you know, before we get to that point, Buffy and Xander, oh, she's just nice. She's nice. She's nice. But the thing is she is essential and we see it later on. And I think she's the heart of this group and carries us through, through the rest of the, the whole series. Um, she's the heart and she's not just nice. She's kind. Yeah. Um, I often think, yes, I often like, I am very biased against Willow. So don't hate me, Penny. Okay.

[02:05:16] I feel like often Willow is just nice, at least in the earlier seasons. And she's so insecure. Yes. Yes. Levels of, of fakeness. Yeah. That's, that's what it is. And she cracks. Like she does vindictive. The difference between Tara's spell is. Oh yeah. It's so different than Willow's revenge spell against what's her name? Not Veruca. Well, we've. Veruca. Is that her name? Veruca? The werewolf girl?

[02:05:45] We've seen hints of dark Willow already. Yes. Yes. Um, yeah. So Tara is just, she's luminous. She's kind. She's. She's just what we should aspire to as a human being. Yeah. Buffy is at her lowest. Yes. Her most depressed and self-doubting. It's Tara that she goes to. Yeah. And trusts. And it's not an accident. Tara is very sincere.

[02:06:12] And everything about her from this point forward is trustworthy. Mm-hmm. Like this was the big secret she had. She's done with that. Yep. And now everything is true from, from this point forward with her. And it's, it's beautiful. I think she is one of my favorite kinds of people. People that I feel like I tend to gravitate to the most are the ones who just kind of radiate authenticity. Yeah.

[02:06:40] And know, you know, if they know who they are for the most part and they're honest about the parts they don't know. And Tara is absolutely like that. She's not really actively trying to hide anything anymore after this point. And she is a genuine, kind soul. And she is Willow's tether to reality, essentially. And that kindness.

[02:07:06] And it, I mean, that's a whole other topic of conversation. But she is essential in more ways than one, especially to Willow. So, and it's going to be really difficult with that storyline. There's a lot of loss coming. Yeah. And it's, it's going to be really brutal. I don't know how some of, like a couple of the episodes are going to be so painful. I don't know how we're going to get through talking about them, but.

[02:07:34] Get ready to hear me cry because it's going to happen. Yeah. It's inevitable. It's coming. Yeah. I'm so glad we finally got Tara backstory. And. Yeah. I can. I remember also, like you said, Dina, I believed that she was, had something going on, something nefarious, that her secret was something dark.

[02:08:00] And, and, you know, when this episode, when I watched this episode the first time being like, oh, she's part demon. Well, that's not so bad. Yeah. It seems awful. But like, this is a group of people that can accept a half demon. And then the reveal that she's not demon at all. And that is pure child abuse. I was like. It wins you over. You shouldn't even let that father leave the magic shop alive. Like I wanted to. His ass Buffy. So well written. Just perfect.

[02:08:30] Perfect. Funny. All right. I think we're done. Are we done? Yeah. I think so. All right. That is the complete end of our show. Thank you for listening, everybody. And until next time I'm Penny. I'm Dina. And I'm Kara. Keep playing. and I'll see you next time.