Lanterns S1E5 "Lights Out"

[00:00:00] Hmm? Ah! Oh... Before we seal this alliance, I have just one final question. If Jason Cabassi was the... Fiddle, as you say. Then he had coitus with Macon. Coitus? Intercourse. Sexual Congress. It's one of the manhoods' most effective weapons. They seduce the strongest in a given community.

[00:00:30] The Alpha. Bending them to their will. I take it Stewart was... Compromised by Macon's advances? Jon had a little coitus, but candidly... I was Macon's main target. We were... We were very... Coitus. Fascinating. You've always presented as heterosexual.

[00:00:56] When you've experienced the pleasures of the galaxy as much as we have, it's less about preference, more about opportunity. Mm-hmm. Ah, yes, of course. Hello, everybody. Welcome to our podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Kirk. And I'm Jim. And this is Wax Episodic. A Lanterns Podcast. That's true.

[00:01:25] And this episode, we're covering a Lanterns Season 1, Episode 5, Lights Out. Lights Out for Zoe. Well... Before we get into this week's episode, I'm going to ask you guys if you've been enjoying us. We've gotten some nice positive comments lately. If you really want to help support us at no cost to you, except for maybe a few seconds, go to Apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts, Spotify. Can you do...

[00:01:55] I think you can give ratings in Spotify. You can. Hopefully you can do a rating and a review if you like. That would be very much appreciated. Help us get noticed by more Lanterns fans. Thank you guys. I'll put links in the show notes so you can find us in the podcast. Hopefully they don't rate just by an announcer. By... By... By... By... By... Nevermind. By what? By what? Person by person. By participant. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:22] If only we could have separate ratings for each host. Jason's a 10. Jason's a 10. And Captain Douche is like, out of there. That'd be amazing. No, you've been getting... I heard somebody say, oh, I'm really liking you guys, especially Kirk. Yeah. Yeah, that was you, Jason. Trying to keep me from crying. Just like your email. Just like your contribution there in the letters. I had no idea. Yeah, I said... At first I started reading, I had no idea.

[00:02:52] I don't know if you could tell from the way I was reading it. You're reading through it really fast, like you just wanted to get it over with. Get it over with. God, I spent some time on that. This guy sounds like a nerd. Anyways, let's get into this week's episode, Lantern, season one episode... I'll read the summary. It's Lights Out. Plot Summary. Nine years ago, Carrie Kane flees Gotham after her father informs on a criminal boss. And Zoe saves her from the men sent to kill her. Even healing Carrie's severed finger.

[00:03:21] Establishing the pattern Zoe's been following for years, performing miracles for people and earning their loyalty in return. In 2016, Hal, furious that John suspected Zoe was the manhunter and kept it from him, crashes their car and leaves John trapped inside while he goes after Zoe. Hal is determined to capture her and bring her back to the Guardians and clearly hopes that doing so will prove he deserves to keep his ring. Zoe deliberately lets John burn before healing him and offering him a deal.

[00:03:50] Let her kill Hal until the Guardians Hal died saving the town, clearing the way for John to take his ring. Meanwhile, Hal deceives Anton into believing Macon is the manhunter, sending Anton and his crew to attack the ranch while Hal goes after Zoe. Anton kills Macon and cuts out his heart, discovering too late that Hal lied. He already kind of suspected. Zoe then unleashes orbital strikes on Rushville, forcing Hal to drain his ring's dwindling power saving people.

[00:04:19] Hal briefly captures Zoe, but she escapes and when he retreats to the motel to recharge his ring, John confronts him. The two have a brutal fight until another orbital strike brings the motel down around them, with Hal using the last of his ring's power to save them both. John takes Hal's ring and leaves him in the rubble as bait for Zoe, then shoots her in the head when she comes for him and cuts out her crystalline heart as proof for the Guardians. John finally puts on the Green Lantern ring he's wanted for most of his life, only to realize he feels empty.

[00:04:49] Seeing what Hal became trying to hold onto the ring and what John himself had become to get it, he gives the ring and Zoe's heart to Leanna and walks away from being a Green Lantern. What an episode, man. What? Yeah. Crazy. I mean... It was crazy. It was crazy. You rarely get a season finale with three episodes to go, a season. You know? I mean, it felt... Yeah, that's right. Maybe it was the 2016 finale kind of.

[00:05:19] Yeah, yeah. Well... Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. It certainly felt that way, because we wiped the slate, pretty much wiped the slate clean in this one. Right. Yeah, I don't even know how to rate these shows anymore, because I loved episode four so much. I think, in a lot of ways... This was a different episode, obviously. I think... But I mean, just the production value alone was spectacular. Just everything about this show.

[00:05:48] And, you know, they gave us every conflict that's been building up, including... We get to see, you know, one of the best scenes, I think, of the series so far. The kind of the peak of this relationship between... Well, probably not. You know, obviously we still have three episodes to go, but we get that fight scene at the end that we'll talk about, I'm sure, between Hal and John that was spectacular. I just... Everything about it.

[00:06:14] I mean, I'm so glad that this is a show that's... You know, most of these cast members don't know a thing about Green Lantern, which I think they did on purpose. And I think that a lot of the viewers are not Green Lantern fans, but are intertwined into this story. And rare is there a movie or a TV show that can encapsulate both fans of the genre and fans of just prestige television the way that this one is.

[00:06:42] And I think this episode, everything that we've been talking about from the character development through the superhero piece of it, I think it just hit everything. It just hit everything. And talk about pacing. Oh, my God. I mean, it was just unbelievable. It was unbelievable. I was, you know, texting y'all last night as I was kind of watching it. And with 15 minutes to go, I could barely breathe. It was just an amazing episode. Yeah, I agree.

[00:07:11] And I think that also, just picking up on the first thing you said about the, you know, all the special effects and everything. The quality of writing in the story has allowed them to use the effects very strategically. And it not feel like the show isn't being, you know, isn't taking advantage of the superhero lore and the ring and the powers of it. You know, you get a little bit, even the flying.

[00:07:41] I love the way they do the flying. Mm-hmm . And he flew in at least half, if not more of the episodes prior to this, but it was just like maybe one scene or two scenes, but it was, it was just enough. And it kept it so that they could really pile in the money into this episode. You know what I mean? For sure. And really, I mean, in addition to the story being climatic, the, the, the buildup of the effects, you know, was also, they also did that, I think, strategically too.

[00:08:09] I mean, with last episode, we get the digger and, you know, a lot more kind of a bigger effects as it built. Mm-hmm . You really like to save that kind of a effects heavy action, uh, showcase of the ring war scene for this episode, instead of having it early on, it's much more tense and impactful and thrilling here because we know the situation and the conflicts and we care about the characters.

[00:08:37] And so it's just a lot more meaningful to have it now. And that was my favorite part of this episode was all the action. And usually I'm not an action guy, but I was just like, Whoa, that's so fucking cool. Like when the big tower fell and all the black, uh, darkness came out and he made some night vision glasses for himself. It turned into that video game scene, right? Like it felt first person shooter there for a second. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that came out of nowhere for me. And I was like, okay, let's do that.

[00:09:04] Um, and I love to how I love how to, he was thinking on, you know, he was thinking of multi levels. He's trying to get Zoe. He's trying to fight off the guys that are fighting them, but he also knows Anton is coming. Yeah. And so he, you know, he, he takes a second to, to look out and see that he's coming. And then just, I love how he just steps out and just fries. Yeah. Sends him up in the air, just in time to blow him up and then says, all right, you're done with it. I'm back to work. You know? Yeah. Just walks right back into the fridge. Yeah.

[00:09:34] Right back into the fog. But I didn't understand why Anton seemed to like, you could hear a little beeping. Like he was a ticking time bomb. He was going to blow up. Yeah. When Hal came out, he's like, all right, I've resisted blowing myself up when making one of me too, because I suspected that he wasn't actually the manhunter, but now I am going to blow up because Hal's here. But his goal is to get the manhunter, not Hal. So why did he choose to? Well, he's pissed. He's so pissed at Hal.

[00:10:04] Suicide? Because they're mad. Because they're mad. He probably also figures that he has the manhunter. Yeah. Which he did. No, pretty much until that she ripped her arm off. Yeah. I, you know, I loved, I really did like the action in this and I'm digging the show, but I feel like I'm not quite connecting with it as much as a lot of people. So maybe after we get through this episode, I will. I also have some, I would say disconnects at the end, but there are more questions than anything.

[00:10:34] Maybe you guys can help me figure out the answers to them. I just want to, I, I've been Jim, Jim, we need to boot Jason. I'll take over a voice for the people in the audience who are sort of not quite. Oh, he's setting down the ring. I'm being honest though. I really do. I mean, yeah, let's just, and I just want to say for as much curiosity as I had with how

[00:11:02] he's got to get the ring and showing like what he can do with it. We finally get what I would consider like my core memories of, of Green Lantern's powers. We get the shields, we get, we get the tornado. I mean, this is how Jordan at his finest, you know, turning. If only he was wearing the costume that would really seal the deal. But yeah, it's still. Yeah. That was the miss, right? That was the miss. Cause he didn't have on the costume, but yeah.

[00:11:32] Well, you know, he, Kyle Chandler, Kyle Chandler didn't want to pee in it. I guess he, he, uh, they, they, they, again, the fatal flaw of the suit according to Kyle Chandler was that it took him an hour and a half to get out of it so that he could go to the bathroom. So he, he had to tinkle in it a couple of times. Wait, Kyle Chandler said that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, because they put that into the show when Hal goes, when you can tell me how to pee in this damn thing or whatever. Yeah. No, that was real.

[00:12:02] That was a hundred percent real. That's a flaw in the design. I would say. Yeah. But I also liked that they kept the, they were very much traditional lantern kind of, um, constructs, but there were also typical, um, of him, of his style, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, and that was nice that they stayed consistent with that. You know what I mean? We do need a big fist at some point though, but I guess he has to fight like a strong guy. Well, we got the finger in Superman.

[00:12:32] Yeah. Yeah. The fingers coming out of the sand, knocking over the tanks. That's pretty much Guy Gardner. One thing I just want to say one thing about an overarching theme. I feel like of this episode is, and maybe the show as a whole, I think I go into a lot of shows trying to figure out whether I'm morally judgmental of the characters. You know, I've had so many conversations about Negan from the walking dead like that.

[00:13:02] And I really think this show wants us to wrestle with who the bad guys are and to think that each person or individual or even group has a valid perspective. That's at least somewhat defensible, you know, or, or explainable. And, um, I think it's a good thing for show to do because we all think that we're the heroes of our own stories, but even more so with this one, it's like, you could go through each character and be like, yeah, what would I do differently if I was in their shoes?

[00:13:29] I don't know. Uh, there, there are, there are some definite flaws in there, but they're all defensible. I think, yeah, not, not only defensible, but I think that the reality is that everyone has flaws and we rarely show that in a, in a superhero. You know, the superhero has to be kind of perfect and make the right decisions all the time and sacrifice himself all the time and, and not struggle with right or wrong.

[00:13:57] He knows what's, you know, but I just feel like Hal, just like I said, when we were joking around, it's like, I love him and I hate him. You know what I mean? He's a jerk, but he's also, you know, incredibly good at what he does. And, um, he also does do the right thing in the, in the, in the important moments. I mean, um, other than, other than leave, which, well, yeah, he left him there to die. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:26] I think this episode, the great part of morally, he's the most questionable. Yeah. His behavior is the most questionable. But he had a choice. He's getting his ass handed to him. He's getting beat up. He knows he's going to lose the ring to this guy. There's no way he can overpower him. The drink's not juiced right now. Yeah. And yet when he realizes they're about to get blown to sky high, he protects them both. Sure. He didn't have to do that.

[00:14:49] But, but I think what I think in the, I, in, and this is the complexity, I think of the character in the moment, like we got to see how Jordan, the hero, he was trying to protect the town. He knew that he was sapping the energy out of the ring. Uh, we knew this was Zoe's plan. Um, he still did it. Uh, in, in your moment, you know, he has an opportunity to charge the ring and he doesn't. Um, he, he, but twice he tried twice.

[00:15:17] He was told to leave in the town. This wouldn't happen. And he couldn't, he couldn't because of who he is. And, and, you know, we get that kind of, that kind of fun little, you know, interchange between him and Anton when, when they're talking about, you know, the, you know, the man hunter, you know, has coitus. Uh, and, and, you know, we see. That's hilarious. Yeah. I w he was coitus with me anyway. Anyways, yeah.

[00:15:45] He, um, he only said that because he couldn't bear not being seen as the alpha male. Right. And that's the strongest one that the man hunter is going to want to sleep with. And, and that part of him. And that is funny as that scene was like, that was the epitome of the episode to begin with. Because if he, if he could just leave, I mean, the town is saved now, obviously there's, there's more play there. Well, yeah, I, I agree. I mean, I mean, that's questionable too.

[00:16:12] I mean, look, Zoe's been there for 40 years and, and they seem fine. Like everybody in the town seems to want to preserve what they have with her. So that does seem like it's possible that if they had just left her alone, it would have been fine. But I'd say there's some things that make that questionable though. I don't think you can take that for granted though. He's the cause of the whole mess. So yeah, he's great. Cause he goes around and tries to save people, but he's the reason they're getting blown.

[00:16:42] Blown up is because of the mess that he's created. Basically, he called the aliens, told him to meet them, brought him there, told him he had the man on there, who it was, knew that was going to create a battle and a chaos. And then thought, Oh, I'm green lantern. I'm cool. I can, I can handle this. I'm going to get everything all wrapped up and everybody's going to be safe and sound and be good. And it's like, dude, you're, you're, you're, you're the, you, you can't see for the fear that he has.

[00:17:09] We'll get into some of my points, but looking at the fear he has of losing the ring. Yeah. He's afraid of losing the ring and being, um, not being the top dog or the most powerful. Yeah. I mean, John said to Leanna at the end, how betrayed everything to keep this ring, his code, his oath, even himself. And it broke him. And I was thinking, really, that seems really extreme. How do you betray those things?

[00:17:39] And I, I don't have a clear answer, but I think the answer I came up with, see what you guys think is he, you, I, I really liked this one scene where, um, John said, okay, so you're going to kill Zoe or the man hunter. And he goes, didn't you read the memo? We don't kill. And I'm like, that's green lantern right there. That's what we want to see. Right.

[00:18:07] He's going to bring, bring her the bad guy to justice. But then he set up this plan where he told Anton that, uh, Macon was the man hunter knowing that there was going to be a lot of death and, and, and Macon, I don't know if I'd call him an innocent person, but not a person that needs to be murdered. I don't think, you know, like, so I agree.

[00:18:32] And I think the reason he's doing that is because, I mean, his whole plan was, let me get Anton's people down here to mix it up and make it's people to create a diversion. So I can get Zoe, as he says to John, take her to the guardians and then there'll be kissing this ring. Like I, it's all, I think for him about preserving the ring for himself. And so I do think he was more focused on that than he was on helping people. And maybe that was sort of his big fatal flaw here.

[00:19:02] Well, and, and I think, and I could be wrong here. I agree with you, but I do think that his ego, I think he believed that he could stop it. I think that even though he was setting all of this in motion, I think that, that how the current iteration of Hal Jordan, and we got to see him interacting with his 2006 version, two great performance by Kyle Chandler, by the way, standing in front of each other.

[00:19:30] Where we get to see this aged, flawed human being and his younger self where he's, his tone was completely different, less gravelly. Nice. Like, Hey, where's John? Why isn't he helping us? And, you know, he, he quite literally doesn't trust John anymore. So the only, the only person that he trusts is, is himself from his more pure self from 2006.

[00:19:57] I, I just think that his ego and, and it's flawed. I, I think probably he knew that this whole town was still going to get, get fucked up. But I, I, I think that he felt like he could stop it. That's why he was trying to. And, and he's sitting there watching this town get blown up and he had to be thinking to himself. Okay. Yeah. I fucked up. Yeah. Let me go through one of my points. Cause I feel like it's relevant and, and informs a lot of this.

[00:20:24] It's about Zoe, uh, exploring her motives and her methods and her sort of moral makeup. And she's a complicated character. Yeah. And I mean, it seems one of her main goals is survival at any cost. She knows that the guardians and maybe other aliens will be after her.

[00:20:45] So she's preparing for that by ingratiating herself with these people, especially ones that she thinks can be particularly useful so that they'll owe her. And then they'll protect her like saving Carrie from these thugs and healing her and basically enabling a peaceful life for her where she would have been on the run or dead. Otherwise she heals Macon's cancer and has an intimate relationship with him to the point where he feels such a strong bond with her.

[00:21:13] He's willing to sacrifice his own life for her. Uh, he gets intimate with John. I mean, she gets intimate with John also, I guess, to create a bond and then heals John burn. John's burns, John burns, John's burns to spares his life. Yeah, he's great. He has, she has this relationship with Anton. And, um, so Carrie, like we've sort of talked about, seems to think that if we just, if they just leave her alone, things will be great.

[00:21:44] But it's not like all just sunshine and roses. Carrie fires a gun at how, because she thinks Zoe's watching and will kill her if she doesn't. So she's clearly afraid of Zoe and how says that. And then, um, we find out that how, I mean, that Zoe was behind sending how to Hector Hammond as a decoy because of Zoe. I mean, she had, uh, Carrie do that.

[00:22:14] So she's been controlling Carrie this whole time. That's why she's been trying to carry. He's been trying to get rid of Cal. So Carrie's indebted, indebted to Zoe, but also afraid of her. Uh, how's like, she's a war criminal and you know, I'm not going to go anywhere until she stopped. And, um, then Carrie says, if you stay, Zoe will fire on the town just to draw you out. So Carrie knows that Zoe is capable.

[00:22:40] She's like, everybody loves her now, but she's capable of just killing them for her own purposes. And that's, that's pretty fucked up in my opinion. And then before we even see any fighting, Hal sees a lot of dead people in town. I wasn't sure for sure why I thought maybe Anton's guys in the town's people had already started fighting. But then when Hal told Anton that Macon is the manhunter and he points at these dead bodies and goes, these poor bastards were his opening act.

[00:23:07] So I, uh, Anton didn't even know why these people were dead. And I think maybe Zoe did kill them. I, I think so. I didn't pick up, I didn't pick up on that. I, I assumed that Anton's guys did that. I know. But then Cal's saying, look, these are her opening. These are, this is the manhunter's opening act. So it feels like he was explaining to Anton why there was dead people all around.

[00:23:26] I don't know for sure, but then we do see her sending lasers down and killing people later just to get Hal to deplete his ring so he can kill them and see these kids, poor kids crying over their dead parent later. And, and other things, Anton had said that she quietly engineered a Holocaust and, uh, you know, have you ever fallen in love with someone and then they betrayed you? So, uh, and, and he's, he's the one that's there wanting to kill her.

[00:23:52] So that says something like he at some point thought everything was great in their relationship too. And now it's his mission to kill her. And he says she's created a Holocaust. I don't think the, I don't think the issue is, is whether or not Hal was right to jeopardize this whole town or whatever. Um, in order to get her, she, she had to be gotten. And John knew that John understood that.

[00:24:17] Well, I thought we were sort of saying maybe if John had just left, I mean, Hal had just left things alone, that it would have been fine. It would have been fine in terms of a huge, the huge disaster that it became. Do you think there's just a better way to get her? Think back to last couple episodes. John says to Hal all the time. I sure, you know, like the last, in the last episode, he said to him, I'm sure you want to just fly in with a big fist and bash everybody and get, you know, but you're going to go in, you're going to get fucked up because there's this two towers.

[00:24:45] And they got three snipers in each tower and, you know, you're going to get taken out. So do it this way. And, you know, we'll go underground. We saw there's a way to do this and there's a way not to do this. And Hal's just not thinking like that. You know what I mean? This is brute force. Yeah, well, not only brute force, but also he doesn't want to wait. He doesn't want to give any more time for John to like get position to take the ring from him. He's terrified. He has no identity without the ring. He's got no family. He's got no friends. He's got no partner. He's got nobody in his house except some alien plant.

[00:25:16] You know, he's lonely. We've established that. He doesn't make connections. He constantly tells John not to do that because it's dangerous. And so he's got nothing but his identity as Green Lantern. He loses that. He's got nothing. So that fear is what's driving him. And in turn, though, he cares about saving people. He's willing to risk those people for him to get to get Zoe. And Zoe cares about those people, too.

[00:25:44] But she's willing to risk them as well in order to save her life and stay alive. So the two of them are very similar. I think they're kind of echoes. And John's like much more like calculating. We got to, you know, we got to stay with the code. We got to follow the. I think Hal's less willing to risk the people that he really cares about, though. I'm not saying his reckless behavior wouldn't put them in danger, but he wouldn't do it on purpose. Right. Whereas Zoe would. I feel like Zoe would. Yeah. Zoe would use somebody.

[00:26:13] Put anyone's life on the line if she thought it would protect herself. Right. Right. And she's purposefully. She's very purposefully doing it. Whereas Hal is. Hal's. Like I said, I think it's an accidental thing. I mean, he's not. He did not intend, even though he knew it might happen. I think his ego just got in the way and he couldn't see it. Whereas Zoe very pointedly. Yeah. I'm going to just kill as many people as I can so he can deplete the ring.

[00:26:41] I don't know if that makes one better or not. But it's. But just to finish up what I was saying about Zoe, like, OK, now I hear you guys are saying, OK, no, we're no one saying that she shouldn't be brought to justice. But there is the question, like, she does a lot of very bad things. We also learned the Guardians made her. She says we were created to enforce justice when they thought we were too brutal. They flipped a switch. I don't know why, but everyone but me was exterminated. So the Guardians created her.

[00:27:11] It feels like she was kind of designed to be how she is by them. So you could say that her actions are not her fault to some degree, which makes me feel kind of sympathetic with her. She even said, like, I had to do something. I forget what it was. But I think this is similar, though, to how we deal with, like, psychopaths, you know, antisocial personality disorder in society that hurt people. Fine.

[00:27:36] And you could argue that their actions aren't completely their fault, but you can't just let them run free and do their damage. Right. Right. But you don't but you don't drop a bomb on the neighborhood. Right. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. You got to do it to try not to kill a bunch of other people in the process. That's true. But I think it was interesting when I mean, now that we know that one of the methods of the man hunters is to seduce the alpha.

[00:28:04] That now it makes even more sense why the thing that made Hal turn on John was when he found out that John, who had slept with Zoe, did suspect that she was a man hunter, but didn't tell Hal. Because she's because Hal knows these man hunters, they seduce strong people. And now John slept with her and didn't tell me that he knows she's a man hunter. And as he says in this episode, he played, she played him like a fiddle.

[00:28:32] So he just thought right then, okay, he, he's under her spell. I can't trust him anymore. He's turned. Something like that. And that's partly John's fault for not being more honest with Hal. Well, I think he was sort of in the process of being played and it was a big deal when he decided to shoot her because you didn't know for sure if he was going to come around and realize that she was a threat that had to be taken out or not. But Hal knew, which I thought was interesting. Yeah. Like Hal knew.

[00:29:02] Well, he put it together when he's like, why didn't he kill me and take the ring? You know, he's like, obviously he's got something, a use for me. He's like, if John wanted me dead, he would do it himself. He wouldn't run away and have someone else do it. Gosh. And when he said bait and she turned, I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. I think your point, I think your point leads into my first point.

[00:29:26] So let me kind of react to your point because I think, and there's that scene where she's fixing John and she's talking about her programming, right? She's talking about, I was built to do this. And you can see, I mean, the actress like really did this well. Like there was kind of torture behind her eyes. She doesn't necessarily want to do it. But I felt that way.

[00:29:55] Like when I have a big chocolate candy bar in front of me and I'm like, I don't want to eat this, but I have to. It's right here. Yeah. So, so. I feel bad already. Yeah. I mean, I mean, hers is killing people, but you know. Yeah. Similar. Yeah. But this idea of programming and I, I watching that scene and, you know, Zoe being programmed by the guardians, right?

[00:30:18] To, to, to, to, to be this, this protector, but the way that she, they, they're, they're programmed to eventually destroy whole places. And then started thinking about all the people in this show. She programs Carrie, right? And, and the thing that we know right now is that she programmed Carrie by saving her, cutting off her pinky. I think there's more to that. We'll probably talk about that in a little bit.

[00:30:45] We talk about Megan, a program to be her defender. He, he loves her. I mean, that scene, Garrett Dillahunt and that scene where, where we know he's going to die, like before Anton walks in. What a, what a great scene. But we see there that, that, you know, his love for her to, to do her bidding. The town. For the extra time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What a, what a great scene. Garrett Dillahunt, man. John Dory.

[00:31:15] The town. We don't know what's happened over those 40 years, but my working assumption here is through healing and all the things that she's done. The town owes her. And we see that at the beginning when they're, they're galvanizing to kill Hal. So she's programmed that town. Anton, you know, he, she, he was the alpha, you know, on, on the planet. And, and, you know, they, they didn't have kids. I mean, we had that whole scene where we actually, we get Anton kind of humanized there.

[00:31:47] John programmed, right? Like he's been programmed since birth to take that ring, which is what makes the end of this episode so important. Because for the first time, any of these characters do something that they weren't programmed to do. I just, I think that, you know, and it goes further down the line when you think of like Hal being programmed to keep the ring.

[00:32:10] And, and, and you start wondering, and this is where Jason, to your point earlier, you were talking about who, who the bad guy is. I, all of these people through no fault of their own have been programmed by something in their life to do the things that they're doing.

[00:32:29] Everything that we see in this episode is that programming from the town to Macon, to Hal, to John, which makes the ending to me so powerful because John finally figures out that his morals aren't part of this ring. This ring that has devoured Hal Jordan, which is what this whole season to me has been building towards.

[00:32:57] He sees what Zoe's doing and then takes her out. I just think, I think that the complexities of Zoe is just a bigger part of all of these people being forced by society in whatever form society is, whether it be the guardians or whether it be Zoe herself or whether it be the ring.

[00:33:18] I think everybody in the show has been programmed to do all of the things that they're doing in the one person, the one hero moment that we get is when John declines wearing that ring. And, and we can talk about the guardians programming in a second, but I, I, even to the point where I think for me, where it hit is when we get, we get the Ab and Sir discussion about her, you know, he saved her.

[00:33:45] Uh, this was, this was, this was, and, and, and probably seduced him to correct. Right. And then, and then kill and killed them, which in turn, in turn, in turn, like created her biggest adversary because that ring then went to, well, John's father, which in turn put John in the, in the playing field. And then eventually to Hal, who again is, is, is the biggest adverse adversary.

[00:34:12] And, you know, I, I still think that there's a tale to be told there, but, um, I just, I, I was just sort of infatuated watching all of these characters being led to destruction. Um, because of things that they've been programmed to do from 30 and 40 years prior.

[00:34:31] And, and I think that, that with the complexity of that, um, is what you were talking about before we even got to the points is, is we have these characters who feel justified in what they're doing because of, of their backgrounds. Um, and that, that speech that Zoe gives about, I mean, it's fascinating to me because she's, you know, an Indian woman, um, who is in Nebraska of all places.

[00:34:57] And she talks about, you know, uh, being someone, being a minority in that town, it, it, it, it, it, it, it gave her a grounding, like, like a human grounding, like to, to, to, to strive and, and to be better. And, and, and I, I thought that, that speech alone, you humanized her to me. I felt, I took that speech a little differently.

[00:35:21] I took it as meaning more like she chose her, her, her look and her position being female of color in order to better be able to interpret the weaknesses and strengths of this culture. That too. I agree. You know what I mean?

[00:35:40] And I think that that, that was what she was trying to explain to him is that, you know, if you want to understand a society and where its strengths and its weaknesses are, then you, you come in as the most, you know, as an undesirable or an outsider, as an outsider, right? Disadvantaged. And then you get to see where they, where their weaknesses are, where their strengths are, and you can better do that. Can I pick up where you just left off? Yeah, no, I think I was kind of at the tail end.

[00:36:06] I just, I, I, my last little bit to that was, was the guardians at the root of all this that we, that we know so far. We know one guardian. And I will say, and then kind of my last little point, how does say in this episode, just to kind of follow up on something we were talking about the big blue people. So he knows them as big blue people too. So I just wanted to throw that out there. Yeah. But, but, but that, that could be a, that could be a throw, that could be a misdirect. You're right. You're right.

[00:36:35] Last episode we were like, is Zoe really the manhunter? And is Liana really the guardian? And I feel like, well, we absolutely know Zoe's manhunter. She has crystal heart. I think, I mean, personally, I think Liana is the guardian and that line went a lot away towards that too. Cause I feel like we can go ahead and say in the comics, they're small, but because he's Hal said the big blue people. They're small, but they have big blue heads. Yeah. Yeah. Really big blue heads.

[00:37:05] So I don't know. You're just normal size heads, but their bodies are small. I do. I do think she, I do think she's a guardian. I do. I do agree with you on that. I just, um, I think she may not be working for the main guardians. Blue head, by the way. See? You have a little body actually.

[00:37:31] Well, I want to pick up where you, where you were, Jim, because, um, I saw this episode is the heart of it. The heart of this episode was about John's rebirth. And I think that's, I think you and Art kind of, that's kind of the same thing you were saying, right? For sure. I'm going to come at it a little bit differently. Um, both literally and symbolically. Obviously, physically, Zoi brings him back from the dead. So that's kind of a physical, uh, literal rebirth.

[00:37:56] Um, but then John, you know, is finally rejects the Green Lantern and Lantern ring, which I think symbolically is about his rebirth as well. Um, you know, the training through this whole season has been about not being afraid. At least in the first couple episodes, that was the big push was not be afraid, um, in order to be a Green Lantern.

[00:38:17] Uh, but then I think as you both would probably agree that as the moved on, it became clear that it really wasn't about fear, not having fear, but that you had to have the, the strength of the control to not let the fear control you. And that that was really became the key to being a Green Lantern. Not that you don't have fear. No one, everybody has fear. Um, but you know, do, does it control you or do you control it?

[00:38:43] Ultimately though, I think the episode brings everything back to willpower, which is what the power of the Green Lantern ring is. That's the emotional, um, what do they call them in the comic? I forgot each, each color is an emotional. Variant or whatever. I don't know what the word is, but. Yeah. Each ring is based on emotions like, uh, blue is hope. Right.

[00:39:13] And, uh. Fear. Orange is. Willpower. Greed. Great. Right. Green is willpower. Red is rage. Yeah. King. He feels like everything he's done has been leading toward becoming a Lantern.

[00:39:39] Yet when he finally has the opportunity, he has the willpower to walk away from it. when he realizes what this ring has done to everybody, how it's ripped Hal apart, how it's been utilized or manipulated by the Guardians and just to not be as humane, not follow the code, none of that kind of stuff. So everything in his training, everything in his personality

[00:40:07] and who he was as a person was about getting this ring. And they throw in the parents on the phone, both last episode and this episode to keep reminding us that that's what his origin is, that his parents are on him, his own conscience is on him, the Guardians are on him, and they all want him to be a certain way. And it took incredible willpower for him to resist all of that calling from all of his life,

[00:40:34] to stand up to that and set the ring aside. My favorite line was Zoe when she was in that same place, scene chose, was doing her, she talked about prejudice and justice and fear. And then she said, those are not obstacles. They're the crucible that forges your greatest self. Yeah. I thought that was a great line. Great line. And I would add one more element to that,

[00:41:00] which is that willpower is what allows you to survive the crucible. For sure. And that's why John comes out on the other end. Yeah. Because I agree that adversity and challenge are, not only can they cause you to grow, but they're kind of necessary for growth. But it has to be the right amount. If it's overwhelming, then you don't grow from it.

[00:41:29] You just undergo trauma that you shrink away from. Yeah. But, um, part of whether it's overwhelming or not is whether you have the willpower to push through it. Right. So in that, in that sense, you know, if that's true, then John may be the best possible lantern that there is. Right. The, the act of walking, being able to walk away from it is what makes him deserving to have. It shows he has the willpower to not only control his fear,

[00:41:59] but control his, the ring. You know what I mean? And not have the ring control him. It's like the presidential candidate. He was like, I didn't want it, but everybody asked me to do it. So I'm stepping up. I, I think in, in walking away to Kirk, I can, you can start to see perhaps the arc over the next three episodes. As we jump ahead, knowing that nobody had,

[00:42:29] nobody that we currently know has the ring on their finger. Now that doesn't mean that the ring's not there, but I do think him walking away may be the precursor to what ultimately leads him back to being a green lantern. And I think he has to be, you know, we've been talking about the, the kind of, you know, the, the construct of the comic books versus the construct of the show. And, you know, I,

[00:42:58] this isn't really a spoiler. It's, it's, you know, rings 10. And we see this in the show house chosen the, the, the ring being someone choosing someone versus it being given to them. And he, he's been programmed from jump to, to, to take this ring. She told them, take it. And he's like, that's not how this was supposed to work. Right.

[00:43:23] Whereas what he's done now by stepping away may ultimately be what makes that ring choose him. I don't, I, I, I don't, I mean, I, there's so many different ways that this show can go. I think this episode in and of itself blew up so much comic canon that, that looking at the canon of the comics is, is, is kind of, it's flawed because we, we, it could go any, any which way but loose. Uh, but I, I think that, that,

[00:43:53] you know, the, the storytelling that we're given so far, and they've been done a really good job just giving, like telling us, asking these questions and then an episode later giving them to us. It feels like this is going to be the precursor to what eventually leads him to being, um, the, uh, a green lantern. You know, we got three episodes to go, which is insane. So we still have this incredible arc where I think it's going to be centered around John now, perhaps finding a way to become land, a green lantern. Um,

[00:44:24] but there's so, there's so much, there's so much left up in the air now. So the stuff you guys are talking about, about being programmed and really like John saying to Leanna, um, uh, I don't even know if how remembers why he wanted it. And then he said, I don't need, I don't even remember. I don't even know if I do either. Right. And you think about, okay, why did he want it? And his mom talked about like, you know, basically you're in this disadvantaged position. Like that whole thing that, um,

[00:44:54] that Zoe said gave her a connection to John. Cause he's, he's just by virtue of being black man is on some level born into a disadvantaged position. And his mother's reaction to that was let's excel. Then let's push through. And just the same thing that Zoe saying, you know, use it to forge yourself into this exceptional person. And that's exactly what they had John do. And they use this,

[00:45:24] uh, prospect of being a green lantern as a way to focus him on just being this fucking exceptional, bad-ass human being. But that was all put on him. And I think, you know, for him to question, why did I want this? I wonder what his answer would be because I wanted to prove myself to my parents or because they told me I had to, you know, I think the real, the best answer for why you would want a green lantern ring is because I want to help people.

[00:45:51] And we haven't really seen him focus on that very much, you know? So I would like to see him come to that. Like I, I am an exceptional person and I can use this power to help people. That's corny, but we're it's comics, you know, that's what we want to see. I think. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think that the, we, we've not seen that version of how, I mean, not really. Yeah. I mean, he is, we see bits of it. I feel like, but it's in the moment, right? In the moment,

[00:46:21] other things, ego and everything. Yeah. But I, I, because instinct is to save people. Yes. Yeah. And, and whatever has led him into the situation that he's in, his instinct is to save people, including John, when John kicked the shit out of them. Right. Like, so, yeah. It'd be funny if he just made a shield for himself. Yeah. I, I agree. I, I saw an interview with the writer of the show, Justin Britt Gibson,

[00:46:50] and he was talking specifically about that, the point of the parents seeing a white man get it after it was offered to a black man. And this ideal of be exceptional. It's yours. It's yours. Why does he get it? And, um, it was exactly what you said. I mean, it almost to a T from the writer himself, like talking about, um, John's quest, uh,

[00:47:19] whether it was his quest or wasn't. And, and, and, and, and was he doing it to be a superhero or was he doing it because of, he was put on this path, um, that was created by his society, um, from when he was a youth. So yeah, I think, I think you're dead on. I, I, I, I did from the writer himself. I want to talk a little bit about just cause we've already circled around it.

[00:47:47] Some of the sort of disconnects I had. Okay. I, I, I liked Zoe's speech. She said, uh, they, uh, I guess, um, shoot, I, I didn't write down the question. What, what is she answering here when, um, Oh yeah, it was how, I mean, how John asking her why she chose that appearance. She said, power. How do you conquer a community culture planet? By the way,

[00:48:14] she's focused on conquering a community culture or planet. That's sort of a clue to what she's potentially. And just real quick, she, that planet part, like how leaving would have saved the town that day. But there was a bigger question. I think it seems like it. Yeah. There's where how, how knows this. She's really biting her time though, being there 40 years. So you sort of question like, what is she doing? But anyway, she goes, you come to it as an outsider. The fastest way to understanding a civilization is if you start from a

[00:48:44] disadvantage in your world. Adversity is seen as some insurmountable barrier, but I need that barrier in order to achieve a higher vantage point, a deeper purpose. Adversity makes you stronger in ways. Comfort never could prejudice, injustice, fear. Those aren't obstacles. They're the crucible that forges your greatest self. And I think that's a great inspiring sentiment. I agree with that adversity and challenge makes you stronger. And I think this perspective is interesting because it gives her this commonality with John, but I don't buy,

[00:49:14] I just don't buy that an alien shape changer wanting to protect themselves would best do that by changing into a disadvantaged person. I think they would choose to look like someone who's already powerful. And so I just felt like that was a bit of a stretch to try to say something with the writing that didn't to me make practical sense for the reality of the situation. I don't know. I thought it, I thought it made sense.

[00:49:41] I thought it was an interesting approach and theory or, or a way for her to, um, to find out the strengths and weaknesses of the culture, you know what I mean? And then, and then make use those as opportunities for her to exploit. I'm just, if I was a shape changing alien that wanted to conquer a planet, I wouldn't go there and say, who are the most disadvantaged? I'm going to look like them and work from that point. I mean, you're already, she's already strong. Yeah. But look,

[00:50:09] if you're going to make yourself Elon Musk or the head of AI or whatever, you know, you're going to be all over the place. And that's the last thing. Elon Musk is all over the place. That's what I'm saying. So you don't, no, there's more ways than one. Maybe we figured it out. But I mean, in terms of like press and exposure and everything else. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think you, you, you, you go under the radar when you're not in that limelight or when you're not in that tier.

[00:50:38] She seems savvy enough to be able to be under the radar as a powerful person. She is under the radar, but then she does. And then attach herself to someone like what you're talking about. Why bother with the middleman? Just be the person. Because again, everybody's focused on making from the beginning. It must be making. It must be making. Everybody thinks it's making. Nobody's thinking her and that's what she needs. That's what she wants. She's dead. She wants to be in the background. Yeah. but to your point, because John figured it out. But,

[00:51:08] but to your point, Jason. So, the big picture, you know, what we've seen the man hunters do, according to Anton previously is destroy planets. When she mentions it, obviously, maybe not, obviously, but I think that probably is her goal here too. She spent since 1986, 40 years in Rushville. And after 40 years, she has control of Rushville. What are we on? I mean,

[00:51:37] to your point, you know, to give you some, you know, some weight to this, how long is this going to take her? Like 7,000 years? Like what? Maybe her species lives a million years. Well, she's not a species. She's like a robot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe she's just thinking in the long term. She's got to know this time. Perhaps, you know, perhaps there's, perhaps there's, there's, perhaps she didn't see herself as the one to do it. Right. I don't,

[00:52:07] I don't, I don't think she, what I got from it was that she was trying to hide out. She just, she's not looking to take over the planet. She's not looking to. Why do you look like this? Her answer, the first thing she says is power, not hiding out. How do you conquer a community culture or planet? She's not saying I wanted to hide. She's saying, I want to figure out the best way to conquer the planet. As, as Jim said earlier, it's her programming, but I'm not sure she's,

[00:52:35] the mission is still to take over the planet, but, but who knows? It doesn't matter. Regardless that she's murdered and destroyed a whole entire sector or was part of that. So how has to take her in? And, and she does have to either be killed or taken in. I, yeah. Well, it shouldn't have been done the way it was done. The bigger, the bigger question, and I don't know whether to say this or not. So, say it. Well, so, maybe don't. I, there was, there was a scene. Devil on the shoulder.

[00:53:05] There, there was a scene with. Kirk's the angel. Billy, Billy making son. And she leans, Noah, and she leans forward to him and says, you know, I, you know, remember everything that I told you. And we see how frantic Carrie is. And I, I remember in the scene, I'm thinking, you know, why, why the hell is, like, we're, we're like nine years out of her, like leaving Gotham.

[00:53:32] Why is she so frantic about protecting Zoe because of the pinky thing at this point? And I agree. I know where you're going. So I, I, I, I think that what she's done and, and maybe this will help you, Jason. And I don't know if this is even true, but perhaps what she's been doing is trying to figure out how to make more of her. And perhaps that's what she's done. I,

[00:53:59] I'm wondering about Noah because the story can't end here. Um, you know, we, the, the man hunters dead. We, we see the crystalline heart at the end. Well, and somebody killed hell. Yes. So if you go back to that first episode and, and you listen to what they're talking about, the, the, the, the John, John asks her about Noah. And she says, Noah's the starting quarterback.

[00:54:24] It's a drawback that we eventually get because we see John teach Noah how to throw a ball through that tire. He shows him once Noah, boom, nails it right through the tire. Now that in and of itself doesn't make me go, Hey, Noah's a man hunter. Right. But when he said does not compute, that was weird. that was when it, that's when it, that's when it was all clear. Um, but I, I do,

[00:54:51] I do think that Noah is kind of what you're saying. Starting quarterback, um, Nebraska born kid. Uh, maybe her goal wasn't to be the one to do it. Maybe her goal was to create more that could. Mm-hmm. Well, episodes. So let me go into the other disconnect that I had. Oh, is it okay? or do you want to, well, I only want to respond to that because it,

[00:55:21] I've got points that tie into that. Go for it. Um, in reference to Noah, the sheriff, when Hal asked the sheriff what Zoe did for her, she doesn't say Zoe saved her life. I gave her a new life or gave her a new pinky. She says, Zoe said, she said, Zoe gave her a miracle. Now, I think when someone says a miracle, as opposed to, they saved my life. New pinky. Yeah, it's a new, that's the miracle.

[00:55:51] A new pinky with, it's a baby. It could be the baby, right? It's a baby pinky. Yeah, exactly. No, no, a baby child. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. two pinkies. It's a little big ass pinky. Really big pinky. Peas and poops. Okay. So, so that's where, so we don't know why that is. We don't know why, you know, whether she, you know, was sterile or was unable to get pregnant or there were issues there.

[00:56:20] And that Zoe helped her out. But if she helped her out, it is possible with Jim, what you're saying is that she used technology that made this child half human, half man Hunter. So that, that is a possibility. The look on her face, the look on her face when she's in the fact that she got that first scene, right? Like we get a little bit of her background, like, like obviously anyways, I don't want to interrupt your point, but I, I just,

[00:56:48] that wasn't a pinky look when she was like screaming about. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and exactly. And the shooting of the, you know, shooting him and she's really pissed at him because she's terrified now. Um, but so my new theory is, is that, that his, that kid is who kills how, and, and I think that I'm, I'm, I'm thinking that because of obviously is the,

[00:57:15] the only character that's really going to carry over from the first half of the series that could potentially have that. Plus it'll be older, significantly older, but then don't forget about Billy. Billy's still a play, you know, Billy's still alive. I think. Billy. The son. Billy's husband. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could, that could be too. No, I think there's something with this kid. He's going to throw a football at how real hard and yeah. and throwing a football like a bullet takes, takes aim.

[00:57:44] And this shot was obviously well aimed. And I think it's not coincidental that it's exactly the same shot that killed his mother. Mm. You know what I mean? You also thought Zoe was the Martian Manhunter. I did. I did think that. And I, and I'm still holding onto that. Why Hal? Um, to, to pull,

[00:58:09] to pull a phrase from how himself bait. Yeah. Cause who comes? Yeah. John, John. It also puts in perspective, not in perspective, but it puts another light on that tear that he sheds. At first everybody thought they must really get close because, you know, he's very upset about the fact that the house dead. Then people were like, Oh no, it's probably Zoe posing as him or. And so that's why he's crying. Now we're back to, Oh shit.

[00:58:40] Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't, yeah. I wouldn't say, Oh no, it's Hal's not dead. I think it's a pretty good chance. He's actually dead, but we'll see. I mean, uh, well, there's some stuff. I actually have a new segment this week, but one little bit of it is Damon Lindoff said they intended for this season to have, be a mystery with a beginning, middle and end, and then leave some things for future to explore.

[00:59:08] But I don't expect that we're going to have any huge questions about any of this by the end of this season. You know, I agree. I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I think that's a much more likely than Martian Manhunter. Excuse me. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I deserve it. Sorry about that. I deserve it. Okay.

[00:59:38] So I think here's another thing you're probably going to disagree with, which is doing my pen. No, stop it. You're, you're hurting thousands of people all at once here. Um, just like Zoe. I want to keep the ring. I want to keep the ring. I want to keep the ring. Uh, I, I, if this is another thing you're probably going to disagree with, but I don't, I don't, the, I don't see the parallel of Manhunter's engineered to enforce justice,

[01:00:06] but turning out to be too brutal. And then, and then like, okay, now they're the type to seduce people and perform miracles to get them to owe them and protect them, but also be willing to kill innocents to save themselves, even though they were engineered to give out justice. And then she also wants to take on the appearance and form of disadvantaged person. So she can understand this of civilization experience,

[01:00:35] adversity to grow stronger and also being a conqueror wants to like all these bits. I can't make them fit together into one thing. It's like, is it about justice? Is it conquering? Is it self-protection through manipulation and seduction, uh, justice and killing innocence just don't go together for one thing. And, and I mean, the only thing I can, uh, the characteristic of hers that makes sense,

[01:01:05] any kind of sense with all of this is she did whatever she could to ensure her survival. She was nice when it served her, but could be brutal and dead deadly, but just hiding out for 40 years in rural America seems different than quietly engineering a Holocaust, which we heard she did before or conquering a planet. It just, her characterization seems all over the place to me. Um, I, I have a possible explanation for that, that, but it ties to the comic book.

[01:01:34] So do you want me to hold that? Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I'd have to hear it first. Uh, no, it's not, it's like a possible spoiler. And then you could edit it out. Is it a possible spoiler for some big plot thing? Yeah. Then maybe we should save it for comic talks. So we'll get back to that. Let me make a note. Okay. Okay. Is there anything either one of you can say here? Uh, well, I'm, I agree.

[01:02:02] I think that while she was explaining it, I think it, for the first time, it felt a little like they had some things that they wanted, that these writers wanted in the story. And to get it in the story, they hired this amazing actress, um, put her in this role and then started putting together some of the things that they really wanted to fit into the storyline. I think they've,

[01:02:31] they've done a nice job. I think with the diversity issues, like they've done a nice job with John's story specifically, but I think they, let me just throw this one little thing in. I, I think cause in the comics, the man hunters are these mechanical looking like square Android looking guys and they hunt people. And I, I think probably one of the big ideas the writers had for this character is they're called man hunters.

[01:02:59] Let's reinterpret that cleverly to be someone who seduces men. Yeah. You know, but then it doesn't totally fit. I don't agree with that. Because they take, they take any, they, they take any, uh, sexuality or gender, whatever they need that, you know, whether it's gay or male. But, but, but what we're given is, is that like, I mean, that's what we see. We see, we see, we see Anton and we see John, like, that's what we're given. Now, I don't,

[01:03:30] I'm not saying, I mean, I think that, that I see your point, Kirk, like, yeah, they take any shape, but it does feel like the shape that they take is the shape that fits into coitus. Well, well, no, I just want to keep, I just want to keep saying coitus. Coitus goes both ways. You'd be either gender or, or coitus is, no, I think it's a state. It's a, I think it's a comment on the misogyny of our cultures, our, our planet's culture, let alone, you know, American culture,

[01:03:59] but, you know, it's a male dominated, um, patriarchy. And so in that case, yeah. Yeah. And to, you know what I mean? You did the best way to seduce a patriarch, patriarch, I wasn't gonna say patriotic, um, the head of a patriarch would be through, you know, sexuality, whether that be straight or gay. But, um, so that, that doesn't surprise me. I'm just saying,

[01:04:28] I think I could see the saying this green lantern villain is called manhunter. Oh, manhunter. Let's make it a woman who seduces men and then building complexity around that. But just the seed of the idea coming from that name, you know, because like I said, if they were just going to take the manhunters from the comics, it wouldn't look anything like that. I saw more as an opportunity to say, this is how easily manipulated, manipulated,

[01:04:58] you know, overly, um, narcissistic, mediocre men who are in charge, uh, how susceptible they are to that. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're not disagreeing. I think that's totally true, but yeah, but they, they do put the story in that she's the nurse, right? Like they, she comes and saves his life. Like she doesn't. And then, I mean, I, I, I don't, you know, I don't know the order of things, but it sounds like, you know, William Megan specifically was dying.

[01:05:27] I think saving his life was enough, right? Like she, as, but she also, she wanted to create more of a intimate bond, a love bond and did the same thing with Anton and then did something to make him want to kill her. But I also think it's notable how easy it was for her to seduce John. She just like said a couple of nice things. And then can you walk me to my car? And if it was a woman in charge and a guy,

[01:05:55] it generally speaking would not be that easy. You know, I just, I just don't agree. I don't agree at all. I just think that, um, I think John is the only one who wasn't susceptible to it. He accepted it and, and took into what played into it in order to, um, get more information and see what was going on, you know? And, and then I, I don't think he was falling in love with her. I think, I think, I think he,

[01:06:24] I think he had feelings for like, I'm not saying that you're wrong. I think, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying he didn't develop feelings for her, but I think it was always, it was always the, yeah, but it was always the mission. She, she was not able to get him to do what she wanted to do. Even after saving his life, he did what he needed to do. He needed to do the right thing. And that's what he did. He took her out. Well, that was showing his character. That's like a story where you take someone and put them in a situation where it's like, oh no, she,

[01:06:54] he's falling for her. And even Hal thought, uh, he fell for her. She played him like a fiddle. And I think, you know, it wouldn't be interesting if there was like, oh no, that he never even was tempted at all. Nothing is like, yeah, he was falling for her. But then he came through in the end. That was the story of John. Well, and that's what the story we get in the car. I mean, I think if we go back and rewind the tape, I think we all kind of agreed with that. Like he didn't tell Hal, he didn't tell Hal, I think because he was falling for her.

[01:07:21] I don't think he was like trying to strategically like protect Hal. I don't think so. I didn't, he didn't tell Hal because he knew how would go do some stupid like he did. So by not telling him, he ran him into a telephone pole. He didn't know what to do. He's, he said to her, I'm, I, everyone's lying to me. Everybody's lying. So I don't, not quite sure exactly what to do with any of this. He knew she was lying to him. She knew Hal was lying to him. Right. He, he, he figured out that guardians were lying to him.

[01:07:49] So he was trying to play everything out to figure it out. The fact that they were laying in bed and he was telling her that while he was starting to figure out that she was the manhunter is like, to me, it's him falling in love with her. I disagree again, because then she says, then she says, you should leave. You need to leave. You have to leave. And he's like, that ain't going to happen. Cause he loves her. I don't want to leave you a baby. All right,

[01:08:19] let's move. I mean, I, this should go without saying, but we absolutely do not have to come to agreements on every point, you know? No, I'm totally fine with you guys being wrong. It's okay. Yeah. I mean, that's fine. I love being right. That's great. Let's talk about the, the, the fighting and stuff. I mean, do you feel like we already did? No, I think there's no, no, no. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like I felt like it was a proxy war, you know,

[01:08:49] it was intense guys versus making guys, but it was really how and Zoe fighting through them in a way. How, how brought Anton's guys there. I mean, they were going to come anyways, but he's the one who brought them in that moment to use them. As I think Kirk mentioned earlier. And then, you know, we see Zoe's town galvanizing at the beginning on her side. Yeah, it really was. It was crazy. How the Anton's guys were, were kamikazes. Yeah.

[01:09:19] Running in there and exploding. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of, I mean, the guy running towards that, that, that building was one of the weirdest scenes in the whole. Yes. Like, look at him go. I'm like Daffy Duck or something. He's not going to make it. He's not going to make it. That would have been funny if he blew up about 20 feet in front of it. It didn't make a lot of sense because the whole,

[01:09:47] the whole motivation for that group was that they were trying to get revenge on the fact that their world had been wiped out by these man hunters. Why would you then sacrifice the last remaining people of your planet to, to this way? Why wouldn't you come up with a more sophisticated weapon or more sophisticated plan or instead of just blowing themselves up? It's happened in the real world. Other than, other than maybe they,

[01:10:16] they don't really want to live anymore other than to destroy the man hunters and then they're done. Yeah. I guess. Well, and we were, we were sold a whole different bag of goods, right? Remember, weren't they capable of blowing up half of Nebraska? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And then they, yeah, that is true because then they said, all right, that must've been a bluff. If we do that, we'll kill innocent people. So I'll give you 48 hours to find out who it is so we can do a targeted approach.

[01:10:46] And then they come in blowing everything up. Well, they, except that they, that's what Hal does. He gives them a targeted approach. He gives them, he gives them a false target. Yeah. Which then keeps them from blowing everything up. Well, and that, okay. So Anton, Anton is there. He's very antagonistic towards Hal, by the way. Yeah. And I guess that's because he's afraid that Hal's going to capture Zoe and take her to the guard or the manhunter, as far as he knows, and take him to the guardians. And he doesn't want that.

[01:11:16] I can't figure out any other reason why he would be so antagonistic towards Hal. But anyway, the guys start, who's antagonistic towards Hal? Anton and his guys, they start firing. That's because, that's because, um, Abansur, uh, was, had assured them that they were going to bring the manhunter to be executed. Mm-hmm. And then they found out that they actually brought the, that brought it here. And, but they don't,

[01:11:44] I don't think they understood that then the manhunter killed Abansur. Right. Um, and so. They just don't trust the Green Lantern. No, the Green Lantern. Yeah, that's true. They also know, I'm sorry. They also know that the guardians created the manhunters and the Green Lantern Corps are affiliated with them. But I think John not having not yet been a Green Lantern, they felt they could trust him more. That makes sense. So I, then, um, anyway,

[01:12:12] Zoe calls Macon and asks if he's ready for what's to come and basically asking if he's ready to sacrifice himself for her. Right. And she is, and then wants him to say it in her language. And I think they just had that little bit so we could see that he's learned her language. So then it would make sense when he starts speaking it to Anton and it gives him potentially more credibility. But, um, I, I really liked that scene with Anton and Macon, uh,

[01:12:41] where he kept trying to, you know, um, uh, pretend that he was the manhunter and just trying to get him to blow both of them up. And then Anton's reaction is, uh, she would never welcome death or you would never welcome death. That's how I knew it was you. And then kills him and pulls his heart out. Oh my God. That scene was a great scene. Oh, it's so weird. I've never seen a scene like that before.

[01:13:09] I can't remember ever seeing anything like Indiana Jones and the temple of doom. Um, then there's, yeah, no, no, no. I, that was, it was, you know, we got two of those scenes in this, in this show. Yeah. We get two hearts getting pulled out. Yeah. Anything else, uh, stand out about any of the fighting or anything? I mean, what about the fight with Howlin? I mean, John, I, that was a, uh, I, first off,

[01:13:37] it was the best part about it to me was the fact that, that it was clearly both of those actors doing it. It wasn't, I mean, they were, they were hand to hand, face to face. Uh, I loved that. How was clearly inferior. Um, they, they, yeah, they, he was like Rocky, you know, he was, he, he was inferior, but he got his licks in though. He got sorry. He was very outclassed. And the main thing that he was doing was not going down, not giving up. He's like a piece of iron. You're not getting the ring.

[01:14:08] You are not getting the ring. Even when he goes to pull it, off him and he's covered in rubble or whatever. He's like fighting to just keep his hand closed. And then John fucking forced it off. I just, I, it was brutal. It was a brutal fight. It was brutal. If, when he kicks him through the closet door, Oh God, I, it was, it was what we needed to see. We needed to see that. I, we needed to see John kick his ass and we needed to see how. Stand up for the ring.

[01:14:37] It felt like it was two, two brothers. Yeah. You know, kind of two different attitudes and they just finally just can't not fight. Yeah. Yeah. And truthfully, I, I think that perhaps this might be, that might be, you know, that interaction. And then the interaction at the end of it, when he takes the ring and walks away, I think my belief is that's the last time they see each other until 2026. Now, I don't know if that's the way it plays out,

[01:15:06] but I don't know. I don't know. All right. I have, I have, I have a point about the ring. Yeah. Let's hear it. All right. So, so I think that, you know, my next point is, is about the ring itself and comparing it to traditional, like comic book lore. And this isn't comic book talk. I think the ring sounds like it as being handled in this show is, sorry.

[01:15:37] You better be equal in the way that you distribute your, you know, so I think that the ring, the ring is being handled in this show very much an homage to another story about a ring and Lord of the Rings. This isn't a ring. This, this, this isn't a ring that feels this, this is a ring of power to me. And, and while it's a ring of power, I think in the traditional sense in the comic book talk, I think this,

[01:16:06] this is being handled right now as something that is corrupting. And, and we see how, you know, we see how as, as, I don't know if you look at him as the Frodo character, you look at him as Gollum in this case, maybe the Gollum character, but he, he, he doesn't want to let go of this ring because it is his identity at this point. And, and it gives him the power to be Green Lantern. And he does not want to give that up. It directs his,

[01:16:35] John's family to want this ring because quite honestly, it gives them power. It gives, it will give him power. And I think it's, it's interesting how we're so focused on a lot of things that are happening in the show, but the core of it is this ring of power. It's corrupted everybody. It's corrupted everybody in the show. And, and I think that's a really interesting take. It's, it's, it's,

[01:17:02] it's not one that I'm used to as far as a Green Lantern fan looking at the ring is, I mean, as a kid, like sense though. Yeah. Yeah. The absolute power corrupts. And then the fact that John said he, he wore it and he felt empty. And then we saw Hal's empty life. Yeah. It feels like that's on purpose, you know, that connection. Well, I, there's that moment where John, you know, walks up to Hal and, um,

[01:17:28] he's lying underneath the wreckage and he pulls it off his finger and, and Hal looks up at him and says, was it worth it? Which great delivery, by the way. he wasn't even like, God damn you. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I mean, and here you have John who has spent his entire life believing that, you know, that's my, that's my mission is to put this ring on my finger. It's going to complete me to the point where he puts it on, you know, he has that ring on.

[01:17:58] He spent his, you know, his whole life wanting that ring. And, and, and Hal has spent the past 40 years thinking this is if without this ring, I'm, I'm erased. I'm nobody. Um, we see these two characters who are kind of on the opposite sides of things, um, letting this ring tell them who they are. Uh, and, and, and, you know, John puts it on and nothing, you know, nothing happens. Now we know he has to say the oath,

[01:18:27] um, but it doesn't change the way he feels as a matter of fact, it makes him feel like he doesn't want it. Um, he's still the person who he always has been fighting to be, um, that I think Aaron Pierre, the actor has been playing it. You know, he's still the, he's still John, you know, except now he's standing in the ruins of this town created by this ring and other things. Uh, so he takes it off. And I,

[01:18:57] I just, um, um, so we finally have a moment where, uh, the ring isn't controlling somebody and, and we see it sitting isolated by itself on this, on this table as he walks out. And I just, as, as he was walking out, I w I, I was thinking, you know, that, you know, that's John, you know, tossing it in the pit at Mordor. Um, even though we know this ring is going to live on, I guess, in other forms or fashions perhaps, but I, I, I just, I, I, you know, Lord of the Rings to me is,

[01:19:26] is one of my favorite tales and, and, and, and looking back now at the show, they're handling it. You know, obviously we have some writers here who, who, I don't know if they purposely put that into canon, but I think at this point in, in any writer's life, when you're dealing with a ring, I think, I think that's probably playing around in your head as you, as you're writing. And I, I, I like the take. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. What about the stuff with Carrie Kane in the beginning?

[01:19:57] 2007. Seven threw me way off. What are your thoughts on that? Gotham crime boss is after her because I guess her father informed on him. That's what it's interesting that there was a suggestion. Uh, he should have just, you know, went along with the plan, but he had to, couldn't keep his mouth shut. But then she makes a point to say, uh, he didn't have much potential of a father. Yeah. And I, and when they killed him, she didn't shed a tear.

[01:20:27] I think there's a chance she was just saying that to make them think I didn't give a shit about my father. So you don't have to worry about me. And maybe they did have an okay relationship. I don't know if it, any of that even matters, but it's interesting. All the key characters in this show have father issues. Yeah. It's because Daniel Lindelof is one of the writers. Yeah. He's, he's leaving the show by the way. Yeah, he is. Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah. He's, uh, he's, I, I, I think that his whole intent was one season because he's,

[01:20:57] he's taking on another series. It's called the chain and it's about someone's son gets kidnapped. And the only way she can get them back is by kidnapping someone else's kid or something like that. Yeah. So he's officially left. Um, I, it's too bad. I, I think that I, you know, is someone who has been a DC fan knowing Gotham. Um,

[01:21:26] and then you inhabit some of the DC universe as we know it today. And there are other shows that are out there that I'm not going to talk about that deal with specifically, um, you know, crime, uh, this type of crime. And I, a lot of crime bosses in Gotham. Yeah. And I, I, as, as I watched that, um, you can see that's probably a piece that tethers this show. Uh, there's another show out there, um, about the penguin that, that's, that's out there that, that, um, is, is really good.

[01:21:55] Ironically enough with another Irish actor, um, at the lead and, and, you know, Carrie McDonald, the actress that portrays Carrie Kane is, is very Irish and Colin Farrell plays the penguin, of course. But I, I, uh, I, I, I was watching it thinking, well, this is a way to tether the two shows, um, together. Of course, Carrie, Carrie Kane, as we've talked about in the other past, that last name, uh, resonates in, in Gotham because, uh, Kate Kane is, is, is Batwoman. Um, so, uh,

[01:22:25] and she has bangs. Right. That's right. And they, and I understood why Hal said, oh, you did the right thing, losing the bangs. Yeah. Um, I, yeah, I, I don't know. Do you think they were trying to say that her previous life in Gotham was as a, as Batwoman or as a vigilante? No, but I don't know. She's a really, she's maybe she's,

[01:22:54] she's a really good actress. She has been tremendous and everything that she's been. So if they got her in this series, to be other things, I, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't, I don't think that Batwoman would be driving away in a shitty car that breaks down. Yeah. Right. Rushville, Nebraska. Uh, but I, I do, I do like, I do like that. Um,

[01:23:22] I saw an interview with the actress talking about, um, she doesn't really know much about DC at all, but she was talking about how much she paid attention to some of the, some of the other shows. And, and there's a Gotham accent, uh, that, that came out and she, she, um, it comes, she said, if you watch the series over, it comes out at times, but she very pointedly tried to play early on, like without out it.

[01:23:51] And I didn't know if she met early on as the teenage version or however old she was at the beginning, um, in 2007, or if she met early on in the series. But, um, I, I didn't go, I, I watched this episode twice without hearing that interview. So I, I just, I, I think that, um, I just think it was a great way to tie, uh, this lantern series into some, some Gotham lore. Uh, you, you give us the last name Kane. Of course, Bob Kane created Batman. It could be that simple. Um,

[01:24:19] it could be as complicated as we eventually have a Batwoman in the series. And we find out that her sister is Carrie, who's a police officer, you know, right. So, um, I just liked that scene because a, I was not expecting that. I wasn't expecting Carrie came background like that. And in the 2007,

[01:24:42] it was significant because it showed us that she owes Zoe and had been in the tank for her this whole time. And I liked that it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, it's, it wasn't 86. It wasn't 96. It wasn't Oh six. It was 2007. And the minute that popped up, you knew, well, this is going to be different. And it was about a different, it wasn't, it wasn't about how Jordan or it wasn't about John. Um, and I, I just really liked, I, it's a little thing. Um, but I,

[01:25:12] I think it's a thing that this show really pays attention to. All right. I'm ready for notes. Are you guys, you have any more points or ready for notes? Um, what, what are notes? Well, I usually, we do points that are a little longer and then any random little thoughts that you have that don't really fit at the end. Okay. I'm ready for notes then. I have one. Okay. I have a point, but it's, it can be a note. It's definitely, I can make it a note. Yeah,

[01:25:42] we're good. Okay. I'll go first. So let's see what it was about when John met Leanna and, and pulls out that crystal heart and calls it her sins and consequences. And she said, even we make mistakes. All we can do is correct them. And, uh, I'm like, well, that's true, but you made a race of beings that killed a lot of other beings. And it just made me sort of question the, the guardians. And I think it's,

[01:26:08] it's pretty easy watching the show to just write off the guardians as, ah, they're sort of nefarious. Like they're the ones that created the man hunters and their trouble. But what are they trying to do? It seems like they're trying to help maintain peace and justice in the galaxy. And that's a noble cause. And don't forget, they're the reason why the green lanterns have these rings that we all want to watch. So I don't, I don't necessarily,

[01:26:37] just like I was saying at the top where you bad guys and good guys, it's hard to paint anyone in any corner, even the guardians. And I could be talked out of this, but I don't just want to think of them as, ah, they're fucked up. Like they're trying to do something good, at least as far as we know, right. They're trying to help the galaxy be a just peaceful place. Yeah. I, so my point was sins and consequence. It was that quote. It was that quote in that very thing. I, I, um,

[01:27:04] when he hands her that heart and says your sins and consequences, um, I mean, he's clearly talking about Zoe and the guardians both. Um, right. Right. I, I think the way that they play this specific guardian is, is somewhat detached from understanding. Yeah. Which makes it easier to not connect with her and think of her as a bad guy. Yeah. Well, yeah.

[01:27:31] And she's telling John to take the ring from hell and being, but I, but I kind of, is this, I mean, do we really think that's how they work? You know what I mean? Right. I, but to, to your point, Jason, like if, if, if they're detached, you know, I mean, how many times do you think you're doing something good without understanding? Well, it's going to, it's going to impact this kid or it's going to impact this person. And it's going to impact the human. They switched over to after the man hunters failed to the green landers. And then it seems like one of them killed one of them. So they, they,

[01:28:01] they, they create, yeah, well, right. They like, so, so they create the man hunters, the man hunt, you know, they think the man hunters are going to be great and they overdo justice and they start committing these massive atrocities. And then, so the guardians go, you know, let's do this again, except for creating them. We'll just give power to beings around the universe. Oh, it's corrupting them. And they're, yeah. Whatever Sinestro did. Yeah. So they try to erase, they try to do,

[01:28:29] use this to erase their mistake, except one survived. And then Sinestro becomes a thing. And we don't really know what Sinestro did in canon of the show, but the green lanterns, what if they're actually going around helping millions of beings around the galaxy? Right. Because they were given this power by the guardians. Well, and that's a piece, that's a piece of this puzzle that we don't know. I, right. I, cause I, I do think that that's, I mean,

[01:28:58] that's what's happening. I mean, we don't, we don't know because we're in Russia, but I think that the, the, the challenge of the question, the, the point of concern with the guardians is that they're self-appointed. They're self-appointed. That justice system for the entire universe, uh, that can easily become fascistic kind of, kind of thing. You know what I mean? And also what is justice, uh, on one planet may not be justice on another planet.

[01:29:28] Um, do they, you know, there doesn't seem to be that kind of, um, subtlety in their, uh, in their logic. You know what I mean? It's like, they don't even understand humans. Right. Exactly. Supposedly. But maybe one, I mean, just devil's advocate. One way to help try to mitigate that is to pick species from each area so that they can. Right. Right. Administer the justice. Right. That definitely. Yeah. I, I,

[01:29:56] I just love the ambiguity of it. I love that, you know, what we know is guardians create man hunters. Guardians try to destroy man hunters because man hunters destroy worlds, but Zoe survives. And the story that we get in this is, um, Zoe, Zoe kind of builds this town, turns this town into, you know, the, her dependency. Um, then we have this town protecting her. Uh,

[01:30:27] Anton kills, you know, Macon Anton, um, how weaponizes Anton to like blow this town or could divert, divert people. And, you know, essentially kill people. We just get this sins and consequences all the way through this to the point where at the end of it, you know, John kills Zoe, the town's destroyed. Every main character, um, for the most part is wiped off the board with the exception of a few. Um, you know,

[01:30:55] I mean that the small consequences and I say small, but you know, I mean, we, you know, if, if what's canon in the show is that they're galactic, you know, police force, um, this small town has been basically eradicated by something that the guardian started. I mean, it's like a microcosm of, of what the man hunters did. And, um, I, I, I can imagine her sitting there, him setting the ring down and, and my, we don't know her reaction to this,

[01:31:25] but she's probably like, what the fuck? Like, here's the ring. You're a good guy. Like be a good guy. Um, not understanding why he's putting the ring down after he watched this, these, you know, these dominoes into effect started by in his eyes, started by her because she's, I loved, I loved that because when he said, when he challenged her previously, she immediately started turning around and manipulating him. Yeah. Oh, but your parents and you're not the guy that they said you were, and boy,

[01:31:54] you're letting us down and this guilt, guilt, guilt. And it worked. Um, and I think, you know, it's so clear that he's way beyond that at this point. And there isn't anything she's going to say. He's walking away. You know what I mean? Yeah. I, I just, I, but yeah, I think, I think that the guardians are, there is an ambiguity there. I think that their desire is to do good. I don't, I, I think what they think they're doing is good.

[01:32:24] Um, and they, and I mean, I think they may be doing a lot of good too, but it's messy and reckless. Yeah. Well, in situations, right. I think, I think that's life. I think, you know, you know, one, you can do it, you know, a microcosm of my life is if I do one good thing for one student and another student sees that and feels slighted by that, it can cause rife between those two students. It can get parent phone calls. I mean,

[01:32:52] I think that every good deed can have consequences. And I think that, that no good deed, it goes unpunished. Yeah. But like you have, you're a guardian, you have access to this power. Like we want to do something good with this power. What can we do? Well, we think the rings can search out really noble, heroic beings. Let's give them to them so they can help people. That seems like a pretty good impulse. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:33:22] And we still don't know how this plays out. So I, yeah. And I, I think, I think, um, uh, the, the guardian that we have in the show, we don't, we just don't know enough about her. She's the one that the other guardians don't like. Yeah. Right. Is she, she might be. Yeah. She might. Is she, is she a loner or is she working with the, you know, the full group? Well, we, we,

[01:33:49] we questioned whether or not she might be the manhunter. Right. I mean, I mean, the whole manipulation thing that you just brought up, Kirk was pretty messed up. It's felt like. Yeah. With John. no wonder the manhunters are, well, I'm going to save that for the next group. The next section. Sorry. Let's move on. Any other notes? I got to read this quote. I got to read this quote. I can't, we can't skirt around the coitus without hearing it. Um, there,

[01:34:19] Hal is trying to, you know, Hal's trying to prove that, uh, you're trying to make a deal with Anton. So Anton, you know, does kind of his bidding and goes off to, to find the manhunter. Um, Anton looks at him and says, well, before we seal this alliance and I have just one final question. John Stewart was the fiddle, as you say, then he had coitus with Macon.

[01:34:48] Hal looks at him and says, coitus, Anton intercourse, sexual Congress. It's one of the manhunters, most effective weapons. They seduce the strongest in a given community. The alpha bending them to their will. I take it. Stewart was compromised by making his advances. Now at this point, I'm like, man, that's gotta be a slap the house face. Yeah. Right. Um, and then just take the most virile,

[01:35:14] powerful man within a certain radius and go right to them. Yeah. You can see all the other betas around. So, so, so how looks at him clearly pissed and says, John had a little coitus, but candidly, well, I was making Spain target. We were, uh, we were very coitus. Anton looks at him and says, fascinating. You've always presented as heterosexual.

[01:35:44] Now looks at him and goes, yeah, you know, when you're, when you experience the pleasure of the galaxy, as much as we have, it's less about performance. It's less about preference and more about opportunity. And I'm just, I just, I, I, I, I watched that scene a couple of times. I, I, you can almost see the joy in Kyle Chandler's face as he's like giving those lines. This,

[01:36:11] this was the one episode that didn't have a lot of humor in it. Um, yeah, it really, that we didn't get a lot of the quippy, the quippy Hal Jordan, but this was, this was his moment. How about, how about John Stewart when he was like completely skinless? Yeah. And he's like, just don't make me white. Don't make me white. Yeah. You know, it's funny. That was a fun. I, I mean, that made me laugh. And then, and then I, you know,

[01:36:40] after what Zoe said, I, that actually, I felt a little weight to that. I, I, I mean, I think he was being funny, but I also think, I think there was some weight to it. Yeah. Yeah. Deal with that. Oops. Kirk, you said you had a point. Um, yeah, the, the, have you noticed that the lantern logo at the beginning of each episode is progressively getting more yellow? I didn't notice that. Yeah. You know, if you check it out,

[01:37:10] there's, um, there's plenty of, not memes, but you know, posts about it. Uh, that can't be accidental. I thought that this, I thought when, when that popped up, I thought, wow, that's pretty yellow. And this last one, it was like the background, we became almost completely yellow. Um, so obviously I think, you know, that that's telling us something or hinting at something with regards to Sinestro or parallax or something, one of the yellow based potential villains.

[01:37:38] So it might be, it might be a clue about the second half of the season. Right. Yeah. Or season two. Maybe our season two. Yeah. Anything else? That's all I got. That's it.

[01:39:01] Okay. We sometimes have a new segment in our podcast. We haven't with flanches, but we do this time. So I read a few items in an interview with radio times. Kyle Chandler stood by Hal's decision to take Zoe out. He said, I saw the description as not a symbiotic relationship with her in that town. I think of it more parasitically. The only reason she's doing what she's doing is so she can keep her safety. She's still a threat and she's still a danger.

[01:39:29] It's like a really bad guy settling in. Saying, Hey, I'm going to hang out here. Don't tell anyone. And until I leave, I'll let you have free dinners. Once she's gone, she's not going to care about whether Rushville citizens starve or not. So I say to hell with her, but I'm glad she's gone as a person. I love porna. That's the actress. She's great. But as a character, nah, I could care less for Zoe. I did my job. He sounds very much like Hal. He really does. Yeah. That's funny. But he didn't take her out. Yeah,

[01:39:59] that's true. You're taking the credit. I know. That was very Hal thing to do. That's pretty funny. What if Aaron Piero is right next to him? Yeah, exactly. What are we talking about, dude? Kelly McDonald, who plays Carrie Kane, said that Zoe slash the Manhunter isn't, quote, ever truly one thing or another. Zoe has really made my character a life. I think she's found a safe haven. But there was something a bit Stepford Wives about it.

[01:40:28] This little town has a bubble around it and protection. It all comes at a cost. So she was seeing a little bit more gray area. Yeah. And we still, we still haven't gotten an answer as to why those people were like zombies in the meat place. Oh yeah. That's right. Yeah. I do, I do love that these actors were clearly coming at this from perspective and not from lore. You know,

[01:40:57] it does feel like they treated, you know, when you see these interviews, her being protective of Zoe makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It's interesting to me that actors often will not despise their character, even if their character is a piece of shit, you know, because they want to inhabit and have empathy for the characters. But I've seen so many actors do that, that I actually think it's more notable and interesting when a character will go, oh yeah, that guy's a piece of shit. You know,

[01:41:27] it's almost a breath of fresh air when they'll say that. It does, it does happen. Yeah. My favorite question will be like, uh, do you, is a part of you in this character? And they'll be like, fuck no, no. Yeah. What are you, the psycho? What are you saying? I think most actors though, when they take on, have to take on a role like that or, of an evil character or Thanos or whatever, you know, like they have to find something that they can relate to or feel, you know, akin to with the,

[01:41:56] with the character in order to get inside their head. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember doing a panel with, uh, Giancarlo Esposito and he'll defend Gus Fring to the hill, no matter what, forcefully. Right. And, uh, it just makes me wonder because Gus is a killer and a bad person. And is Giancarlo like as an actor, is it healthy to be in that space where you're identifying with the person and do they actually do it?

[01:42:24] Or are they just sort of feeling a responsibility to present that kind of view? I think they actually do do it at least to some degree, but I do wonder if there's some part of Giancarlo Esposito who's like, no, I know Gus isn't a good person, but that's, I have to inhabit his personality or something like that. You know? Yeah. It's interesting. Anyway, next item, last item, lanterns hasn't yet been officially renewed for a second season, but it does seem likely because it's been really successful.

[01:42:54] And the writers have been in the writer's room working on season two. There's some changes behind the scenes. Uh, as we mentioned earlier, Damon Lindelof and Tom King have stepped away from the writer's room. When I saw, I just read ahead and saw that. I was like, Oh no. And, but the way the show came together, I didn't know this, but Tom King actually came up with the basic idea for the show. And, you know, he brought the comic writer expertise.

[01:43:24] Um, but he knew he needed someone who really understood how to make a TV show. So that led to Damon Lindelof, but then they brought in Chris Mundy to actually run the show day to day. Um, so Tom King has described himself as the student in the room, Lindelof as an idea machine and Mundy as the person who grounded everything and made it work as a TV production. And, um, it's not a falling out. Damon Lindelof has that other show,

[01:43:54] the chain to do. Tom King is doing other comics work and an animated Mr. Miracle series, which is cool. I, I, he did a comic. Yeah. It's supposed to be good. I haven't read that actually. Oh, it's fantastic. About it. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got to check that out. Uh, but anyway, um, for season two, Christopher Cantwell has come aboard to work alongside Chris Mundy. He,

[01:44:19] he made Halton catch fire fire and he's an experienced comic writer too. And, um, you know, I, I, I think Lindelof is, is a gifted, uh, creator. So I'm sad to lose him. But, um, I think this felt much more like a Chris Mundy show, honestly, because I've also loved true detective and Ozark and just the focus on. Yeah. What is focused on it? I mean, you could definitely feel Lindelof in there, but I don't know.

[01:44:49] I'm not feeling like, Oh man, it's going to be ruined now. I'm just kind of curious. Yeah. Just disappointing that they, you know, there was such a good chemistry to not be able to do another season, but can't, can't, can't, can't, it's interesting though. Like he's, he's written a lot of, um, he did a Iron Man run. I think that I really liked. Um, so he's a, he's a good writer. So we'll see. We'll see. But he's a, he's a, they, they brought him as a, as a co-showrunner, right? Then is that what you, that's what I read. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's interesting too,

[01:45:19] because the other two were not labeled showrunners. They were just right. Executive producing. Right. Yeah. Co-creators. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's get into the feedback. Megan O'Connell says, Whoa, this is a great episode. It had me holding my breath. What in the world is going to happen next? Can't wait to find out. And also hear y'all's theories. I need the tea from comic talk too. Oh, Kirk, Kirk, Kirk's bringing the tea. Sorry. Go ahead.

[01:45:50] I'm a coffee guy. Brad Holt. Whoa. Three episodes to go. And Zoe, McCone, Macon and Anton are dead. Hal has lost the ring and John is walking away from the ring. How does Hal end up dead? This show just keeps getting better. Mo Favo. Amazing episode. How do you think about citizens of Rushville? Number one, they entered a grand bargain and honoring their agreements. Two, it's a cult worshiping a more powerful figure.

[01:46:20] Three, the trade offs are always worth it to them. I think it's all three. Yeah. I was going to say three, all three. Absolutely. It definitely had elements of cult. And all of the above and impressed with how writers made it work. Yeah. Hal taking out John gave John permission to take out Hal. Zoe setting up John gave John permission to set up Zoe. Interesting. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah.

[01:46:47] Guardian's lack of leadership gave John permission to not lead. If you think about John achieving his mission and on his own terms, look forward to the discussion. Those were really, really good points. Were you going to say something, Kirk? No, I just, I still am curious as to why Hal would smash him in the car like that, which could have killed him right off the bat. Wow. We didn't even talk about that. Secondly,

[01:47:17] then go over and tell him like, you know, he's leaving them there. Hmm. And then the car goes into flames. He would have died. Yeah, he would have died. But then he puts the shield around him when they're fighting, which I praise him for. But at the same time, it's weird. But I think that's because he's just so, you know, lost. There's that throw in line when, you know, John runs into the,

[01:47:44] to get the sniper gun and he's talking to his parents and he says, you know, I don't even know if he did it on purpose. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah. So, well, I just know that I'm good. I'm going to, I'm going to find him. I'm going to beat the shit. I'm going to pull that ring off his finger. He does. When, when Hal said, you know, Hey, we don't kill junior. Uh, that made me think, yeah, I don't think how I, I thought differently last week,

[01:48:12] but now I think Hal never intended on killing John. And for whatever reason he thought this will trap him here, but it won't kill him. But you're right. He would have died. He would have died if Zoe hadn't come along because it lit on fire. So I think that's sloppy writing. Honestly, he basically did. He basically, he basically did die. Yeah. I mean, how, how doing that is, is to me, one of the dumbest things in the show is like, yeah,

[01:48:41] I think the best way to trap him, even though I've got this ring, I think the best way to trap him is to, you know, run a car into a post. Yeah. And also, I mean, I get to be exciting to watch. It's, it echoes the opening, but to me, it's, it was a little bit like you're saying, but not just sloppy writing and late, a little bit lazy. Yeah. They didn't want to have to come up with something more, you know? Yeah.

[01:49:08] It's one of those things that we're just not supposed to question too hard, but we are, because we're in a podcast, but they also needed to have it be something that would damage him to such a degree that the Zoe would have to repair him. They had, it was, it was a multifaceted story element. It accomplished something with the story with how, but it also continued on the story with him and Zoe. And it's good in that way.

[01:49:34] But another thing we didn't mention is that Zoe could have pulled him out of the car before he was burned. No, no. I've seen people talking about that online. No, that, that would make no sense because her whole deal is manipulation. She needed to, right. She needed to get in. Right. It makes complete and total sense, Kirk. That is my point that she could have taken him out, but she chose not to because she wanted to let him fry. So that then she knew that. I thought you were saying that was more of sloppy writing.

[01:50:05] No, no, no. I'm saying, yeah, that it was fucked up. Definitely fucked up and intentional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Rachel Teal Edwards says, holy moly, this felt like the season finale, but we have three whole episodes left. Where do we even go from here? I can't wait to find out. Excuse me. Sometimes I feel like Carol on the walking dead. I have no idea what's going on in the most wonderful way, but I'm following the story enough that I'm really into it. Well, that's good. I'm glad to hear that. I was curious about you in particular, Rachel, whether you would dig this.

[01:50:34] She says, follow up as I'm finally listening to last week's podcast. One, I went on Reddit last night after watching the episode and someone was like, maybe Leanna isn't really a guardian. And I thought, hmm, yeah, this actually makes a lot of sense. And now listen to you guys, Kirk in particular. I'm like, yes. The fuck. I'm loving these theories about Zoe and Leanna being the same entity. I don't know if we actually think that anymore after this week's episode though. No, definitely don't. Definitely don't. Two,

[01:51:04] I'm starting to understand that my lack of understanding has less to do with not knowing the comics and more to do with the fact that we're not supposed to have any idea what's going on. Few. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. Although we learned a lot more this week. Uh, now that we know three, now that we know a little bit more about Carrie, we know there is a lot more to know about Carrie and that she knows a lot more than she claimed to originally. That's true. Yep. Yeah.

[01:51:29] It'd be interesting now to watch the whole thing again and knowing what she's hiding and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Four. Jason Ritter is way too big of a name to have this small of a role. So I'm certain there's more to come with him. Is he though? Is he a big name? No, his father was. Yeah. I think that he's, I've thought about this. I mean, he's a name, but I don't think, I don't think he's way too big of a name to take. I think he's in the perfect role that he, that he's in to be honest. Yeah. I'd like to see more from him.

[01:51:58] Has he been in anything else? If it was like Leonardo DiCaprio, then we'd know. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, Jason Ritter has been in a few things like he's in, um, Matlock right now. I mean, you know, I mean, he's not, he's not been in anything super big, but she goes, do you, do you watch Matlock, Jim? No, no. I follow, I follow him. He's a really fun follow on Instagram. Um, he's married to, um,

[01:52:30] shit. Uh, Melanie Linsky. Yeah. Melanie Linsky. And, and, um, they're a real fun couple. Uh, you know, he's, he's pretty funny, like his dad. And, uh, he has a really good, it looks just like him. Yeah. Yeah. I miss him. I love that guy. He's a good editor. So cool. She wraps up. Okay. Thanks guys. The podcast is so helpful and fun. Cheers. Well, that's really nice to hear. Thank you. I mean, other than your take on Kirk, I think that was a great post. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. It's funny.

[01:52:59] I really liked that part. Carissa, even though I knew whatever happened to John, though, I did not expect the burned alive situation. He'd be healed by Zoe's tech. This episode was still a nail biter for me. John's parents are relentless. They need to take several stadiums, of seats. Good Lord. So Zoe and Anton got busy and had kids. No, they tried, but couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[01:53:27] So what happened to Anton's people is what almost happened to Rushville folks. Maybe. Maybe. Zoe embedded themselves, herself into the community, then turned on them. I don't think she turned on them. I think she just doesn't, doesn't have any value for them. If it, if it's her life, that's in. If it goes wrong somehow. Yeah. Maybe. I'm glad John has found his voice and is making a decision that is his own. Can't wait to see his parents' faces when they find out.

[01:53:57] Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah, they are. They're going to have it. That's when you're going to see fear in his eyes. Yes. That's right. Hal seems almost rabid and in over his head at this point, which is basically what John said at the end when he gave up the ring. That fight was brutal, but it had a lot of sibling energy. That's what I said. Nice. I like, I like Carissa. Kurt, you're the star of this, man. Rachel and Carissa are my faves.

[01:54:26] Maybe Kurt should just do the podcast. Yeah. Next week, we're not showing up. Yeah. And we'll be down to one. Oh, two. Two. Rachel and Carissa. This is, this is bad. And all that led up to it is bad, but the relationship isn't necessarily beyond repair. Now that I look back, John's taking the ring felt someone taking a bottle from an alcoholic. That's a great analogy. Yeah. I love crying it out of his fist. That really was.

[01:54:55] Is it sus that Zoe just let herself get shot? What are you going to do? A little bit. Well, yeah, but I'm also like, why is that killer? Yeah. I mean, she ripped her hand off and grew it back immediately. I mean, what, because it goes through her, what is she like? Cause I'm going to hit the brain. They said, they said at the beginning, I might be wrong, but I think that at some point in the series, it was stated that when they take the form of.

[01:55:24] Whatever they take the form of, then they become. They have its physiology. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're right. Except for the heart, right? Well, the heart's vulnerable in the same way. Ours is, but is it sus that Zoe let herself get shot? I once thought there were several man hunters in town. Well, that's not necessarily not true yet. We don't know. And while we're being led to believe it was just Zoe, I think there is another one. My guess is the kid. I like the way Carissa thinks.

[01:55:56] Or if not, there is something going on with that kid. Other loose threads are obviously Hal's death and guardian shenanigans that are not revealed yet. Awesome coverage guys. Thanks Carissa. Yeah. Thanks Carissa. She's awesome. She listens to the walking dead rewatch. She came on to guest a couple of times. that's nice. Yeah. We never, we never talked about the bird bird showed up. Yeah.

[01:56:23] I felt like that was a representation of John's conscience. Cause it showed up right after he pried the ring out of. Right. It was just a bird though. It wasn't, it wasn't his construct. Was it? No, no, no, no. I think it's all just metaphor. Yeah. Well, except there has been, there has been the indication that the guardians use the bird as. To watch him. To watch him. So I think it was very much probably, you know. Spy.

[01:56:52] What's her, what's her name? Leanda? Leanna. Leanna was watching. And especially at that point where he takes the ring. Cause that's what she wants to see. You know what I mean? She desperately wants him to take over. Yeah. Okay. All right. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening to everybody.

[01:57:20] Stay tuned till after this part that I'm saying right here. And you'll hear the comic talk section that has potential spoilers and talk about outside properties and things like that. Next week, Lantern season one, episode six. You said they had a title. Yeah. Bad optics. Bad optics. That could have been any of these episodes. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can send it to brightest day at podcastica.com.

[01:57:50] Or you can leave comments in the podcastica discord or in our Facebook group, where you can also chat with us and other listeners about lanterns or whatever else you are watching. Links, of course, are in the show notes. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Happy Cordis. Cordius. Cordius. All right. So everyone,

[01:58:19] here's your final warning that if you don't want to hear about anything outside of the show that might contain spoilers. Bye. Thanks for listening. Cause we're going to do comic talk now. And I have two notes here. I don't remember what either one of them stands for. One says Zoe. No, that was you, Kurt. No, I was going to, no, I was going to, my comment is, the other one says Macon. Oh, no, it's, and I already forgot little Leanna, Leanna,

[01:58:48] what's the Leanna, Leanna, Leanna. Yeah. Mine is about Leanna. Okay. Not Zoe. All right. Fuck you. I don't want to tell you no. I don't want to say no. No, you don't want to do the comic talk. You wouldn't let me do it. We were, we were, no, I know. We were, what were we talking about? We're talking about the guardian and, and, and what her situation is, whether she's working on her own or whether she's not. Yeah. That was, and then also that within that was also the,

[01:59:18] the managers themselves. And why, why was this, what, how they approach things and how they do things. That's what they were supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. Well, here, here's a little bit on the, the man hunters and DC comics are an ancient race of emotionless robotic androids created by the guardians of the universe as the galaxy's first interstellar police force operating under the chilling motto. No man escapes the man hunters long before the green lantern core, the guardians of all built the androids to enforce order without empathy,

[01:59:48] hesitation, or individual judgment, tampering or corruption often attributed to the rogue guardian Krona. warped their rigid programming. They concluded that true cosmic order required eliminating free will and sentient life entirely. This led to the horrific massacre of sector six, six, six, leaving very few survivors.

[02:00:11] So there was a guardian who in the comics was responsible for actually changing the rigid programming of the, of the man hunters and making it more, more warped or more, maybe making it more ribbed, ribbed for her pleasure. Um, speaking of coitus, full circle. That's where they got the idea. Yeah.

[02:00:39] So I think that's who we're dealing with. I think this is a rogue guardian, kind of rogue guardian who was the one responsible for, for tinkering with the man hunters programming, which then sent them off on this crazy spastic routine where they ended up wiping out an entire sector. And so they're also probably wanted by the guardians of my guests. I'm,

[02:01:06] I'm wondering if the guardians are even aware of what's happening right now. Yeah. You know what I mean? This is a guardian trying to like clean up the mess, right? It's a guardian trying to save themselves, manipulate things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's there in the comics and it would make sense. I mean, I mean, she seems not cool. So it seems like it would fit with that. Well, we should talk. We, uh,

[02:01:34] we know people want to know where the ring is going next because John said no to it. And if you watch Superman, you know that that's in 2025 set in 2025. Correct. And there is a green Lantern named Guy Gardner. You made it for us to talk about him before, but we don't really know how he got the ring. So, uh, but since we're talking spoilers, we'll say that the, what do you call it?

[02:02:01] The preview for next week's episode has him in it. Yes. He's like visiting John and John or something. In 2026, John's in jail for something that he does. I, um, we're given a scene prior to that where there's seems to be a fight with Billy making, um, I don't think John's in jail because he's also there. If you see in the trailer, he uses a, it's almost like a bat signal. Yeah. to call the lanterns. It's like a green scene. It's outside.

[02:02:31] So he's at the police station. And remember we, when we first see him in the first episode, he meets up with the sheriff. I'm sure he's like, I got no place to stay. Oh. And she's like, why, why did you just take a bed in the, at the police station? That's my guess. I mean, I don't, I, yeah. Yeah. I'm just glad. Cause I like Nathan Fillion. I like the character of guy Gardner. And, uh, also I want to know how he got the ring. So I'm hoping. Yeah. I think that's going to be explained.

[02:03:01] Yeah. I hope so. I, I'm sure John is going to be thinking, God, I had to deal with how all these fucking years. Now I got this. Yeah. Yeah. It's worse. Yeah. Exactly. Miss John. I'm hoping that, that like the very last scene or so, or the last part of the last episode is we finally see the true guardians and they, they, they present themselves to John and they're like, look,

[02:03:30] this sector has become much more volatile and it needs more than one lantern. And you are, you know, by far the best possible lantern. So we want you to take this ring and, and, you know, you can report directly to us if you want, you can do your own thing, you know, they're going to present, leave him in much more of like in charge kind of situation so that he doesn't have to worry about being manipulated any further. That's, that's, that's my hope.

[02:04:00] I think there's a possibility that Guy Gardner gets this ring with the understanding that it's going to go to somebody else at some point. I, I, I think there might be a handoff. The, the, the, the, what we're seeing in the, in media though, is that they're both in the Superman movie. Oh, okay. Yeah. But, but I don't, but I don't know for a fact. I mean, there's, there've been some promo images and stuff and stuff like that. Do we see, or I, I,

[02:04:30] I, I just, I can't get it out of my head that the, that there could potentially be a Jon Stewart comic canon where he doesn't have a ring. He's just, when we talked about this last week in comic book talk where he manifests the. Yeah, that would be cool. That would be cool. Certainly. They're certainly building his character in that direction where he's, he's, he's got power within him as opposed to needing the ring to, to present the power. So, yeah.

[02:05:01] Um, I'm excited that Brainiac is going to be the villain in Superman man tomorrow because they haven't had that live action. And I'm sick of Lex Luthor. I'm it's cool that Lex Luthor is going to be in it and I guess they're going to team up or something. I'm sure Lex will betray Superman at some point, but anyway, we get to see Brainiac. That's cool. Yeah, I agree. Also, I believe, I believe that there, who's the other member? There's a, what's the evil group?

[02:05:32] The Legion of Doom. The Legion of, is it Legion of Doom? Yeah, I think it is Legion of Doom. Yeah. And I believe it's, um, it's a number of the villains that have already popped up. I want to see Solomon Grundy. Yeah. I don't remember the exact. Sinestro was in it. Yeah. Sinestro's in it. Um, but I don't know. There's Cheetah. There's Lex Luthor. There's Brainiac. Sometimes. And then there's Cheetah, but, but we haven't. Yeah.

[02:06:01] I don't think, I don't think Joker's the main. There's a rumor about a new Wonder Woman actress. She's supposed to be in it. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not sure, but that's the rumor. All right. Well, my wife is texting me and I feel like she's getting mad that I'm still podcasting. all right. Unless it happens. I don't have any more comic book talk. So it works out. Do you actually? Uh, no, no. I mean, there's just a,

[02:06:29] there's a bunch of non-canon stuff that happens like Abin Sir, um, being killed as opposed to dying in a, in a, um, that's okay with me if they change the story. Yeah. Yeah. To sort of make it work with what they're trying to do. I like it. I, I, yeah, it doesn't have to be comic book canon. I like it that there's like a tinge of it. There's an homage to it, but they create their own thing. And I think, I think good comic book writers do that in every new version that they create.

[02:06:59] So, and it was kind of cool and elegant to tie in this whole story of this series with Hal's origin as the green lantern too. I like when they, and it was, it was, it was interesting watching her pained to say that she killed them. You know, I, I like that. I like that. So like me when I'm eating that chocolate bar, I don't want to be, it's the same thing. All right. My belly says no, but my mouth says yes. Yeah.