705: "The Same Boat" (TWD S6E13 Rewatch)

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[00:01:00] Hmm? Ah! Hmm. Hmm. I'm going to be the girl. Hehehehehe. You're good. Nervous little bird. You were her. Not now. Right? Me too.

[00:01:30] Told you to run. If you could do all this, what were you so afraid of, Carol? I'm afraid of this.

[00:02:18] Hey Zed Heads, welcome to the podcast. I'm Jason. And I'm Lucy. And I'm Robin. Robin's back. Yay! And this is The Walking Dead 'Cast episode 705. And this episode we're covering The Walking Dead season 6 episode Unlucky 13, The Same Boat. Woo! Yeah. Welcome back, Robin. Thank you. It's great to be here. I love you. You wanted to do one with Lucy. Here she is. And I'm here! I know. I'm so excited to meet her.

[00:02:46] It's, you know, it's, it's, you know, I'm a fan. So, I'm a fan girl a little bit. Oh, and I'm a fan of you. So this is great. Of both of you. Thank you. So, before we get into the episode and I ask you why you picked it, I do want to talk a little bit about, because we were talking last week about going in and killing all the people in their sleep. And I realized I didn't suggest any alternatives and I wanted to go and think about that first.

[00:03:16] And I did. And so I just wanted to talk a little bit about that because, um, I kind of did say this already, but they don't have a lot of information. I mean, there's two big problems with the plan in my view, the morality of it and the lack of knowledge. And so about the lack of knowledge, they should do some reconnaissance first, like find out, try to find out how many saviors there are, whether this place is just an outpost

[00:03:41] or headquarters, how the communities are structured, whether this is important to me. Everyone there is voluntarily involved or there's like maybe even civilians or families. Cause it turns out there are in the saviors later, what the leaders like. So maybe don't immediately launch a nighttime assassination raid before, you know, any of that stuff, you know, it's ridiculous to do that. Scout them, track movements, learn numbers, observe patterns, all that kind of thing. Figure out whether there are multiple compounds.

[00:04:12] Um, I could even grab one of them. I mean, I would, I, this is a crappy thing to have to argue, but it might be morally better to grab one of them and, uh, lock them up and try to get information from them. You know, get Daryl in there like he did with Randall. I mean, he loves doing that, right? Yeah. He'd be the man. Yeah. Yeah. It never made sense to me why they had to hurry up so fast. I just, I was kind of like, does it have to be today?

[00:04:40] Well, they were hungry, but they could have said, give us the food and we'll start our plan, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, then also they could try fortifying Alexandria to prepare just in case, you know, train fighters, reinforce walls, the things that Jonathan Buccalillo was saying when he was on the podcast, establish escape plans, stockpile ammunition, um, just all kinds of strategies and things, develop observation posts and warning systems.

[00:05:08] And then maybe find out from Jesus about possible other communities that could ally and plan with create an alliance among them. Like if they do all that, then they strengthen their position and then they could try the negotiations like Morgan suggested from a position of strength and knowledge. And it might fail, but they might even learn more in those negotiations and figure out the personalities and see if there's anything to exploit there. And I feel like all of this, just doing all that solves the second problem, the morality

[00:05:37] part, they would preserve the moral high ground. And I do think that's important for, for morale. It's, it's like this whole series is about the characters trying to preserve their humanity in the harsh world and not become like the walking dead, which is another theme of this episode that we're about to talk about, I think. Um, so anyway, that, those are a couple of things. Yeah. They make sense. I don't know. It's not, it's a shitty situation.

[00:06:05] So there's not like any clear like, Oh yeah, this would have totally just totally solved their problem easily. I don't think there's anything like that. Yeah. Where does, where do you think the story would have gone if they had done that? I mean, my mother always used to say, well, if they had done the smart thing, there wouldn't be a story. Um, no, I think it would have been almost the same story, except we didn't have to feel shitty about last week's episode. Yeah. Right.

[00:06:31] I think it could have been close to the same thing, but walking dead loves to create these situations where we're having to debate over whether it was right to kill innocent people. I've noticed like Lizzie and, uh, you know, Randall and Bob, the police officer. It's like, why do I like this show? Well, and, and Shell says to Maggie, you guys are not the good guys.

[00:06:58] Um, you know, which having her say it right out loud, like that is kind of like, wait a minute, there are people, of course they're the good guys, but they're not really in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think I would argue that the saviors are definitely, uh, worse. Oh yeah. But. Worse doesn't mean the other one's good though. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Well, let's get into it. So it's the walking dead season six, episode 13, the same boat. Robin, would you like to read the plot summary? Sure.

[00:07:28] Uh, Carol and Maggie are captured by Paula, Michelle, Molly and Donnie, who observed Primo taken hostage by Rick's group, feeling themselves at a disadvantage. They would draw to a slaughterhouse to interrogate Carol and Maggie while awaiting reinforcements. When unguarded Carol and Maggie free themselves and kill their four captors. They dispatch the reinforcements who dispatch the reinforcements who arrived just ahead of their group. Rick kills Primo when he claims to be Negan. Yeah. That was a dumb thing of Primo to say.

[00:07:59] I'm the guy you want to kill right here. Um, so Robin, you asked for this. This one, how come you wanted to do this one and how did it hold up for you? Well, actually I, you know, on, on the surface at first glance, it seems like it's just going to be, you know, these two, these four women are mirror images of themselves or reflections of each other. And when I watched it again, yeah, all in the same boat.

[00:08:28] Um, but when I watched it again, in some ways they really aren't. And it's interesting to figure out who's, I don't know if I acting, I mean, is Paula acting as tough as she is or is she really that tough? Is Carol acting that afraid or is she really that afraid? Um, you know, what's going on. Um, you know, what's going on. And so, you know, I watched it again and then I watched it again the other day.

[00:08:54] And, um, it, it's really intriguing to me how they sort of are in the same boat, but they're not as alike as you originally think. Hmm. And, um, so that, that was, and it, yes, it held up. In fact, I, I, it held up even more. The first time I saw it, I was like, yeah, this is a good episode. I like it's very tense, very. And of course I recognized Alicia Witt from, um, uh, justified and also from my favorite

[00:09:23] Hallmark Christmas movie, um, a very merry mix up. So it was really interesting to see. Oh God. Yeah. You can imagine. Um, but so it was really interesting to see her in that role because when I first saw her on screen, I thought, oh, this is going to be, she, she can't do this. It was good. It was, she was so good. But you know, the first time I watched this, I thought her performance was a little odd or something because I was reading my notes, you know, from 10 years ago or whatever, but

[00:09:52] I didn't think that this time. So I don't know. It was weird. I don't always agree with myself from the past. I thought she was great. Lucy, what it, how about you? How did it, do you remember how you felt about this the first time and whether it changed this time? Yeah. It's an episode that's always kind of left me cold a little bit and I don't really know why I was surprised when I was rewatching that Angela Kang had written it. Cause to me, some of the character stuff feels almost more gimply in this episode. I don't know how to kind of quantify it.

[00:10:22] Um, I enjoyed it more the second time around in the rewatch, but it, oh, I don't know. I don't want to say filler because I think fillers, uh, we misuse that term to like say that something's not worth watching. I think it is really interesting, but I think sitting in the discomfort of knowing what's going on in the past to come, it felt more excruciating to watch this time. Right. Yeah. I, I liked it.

[00:10:47] I thought one of the things I like about it is it's about the women and it's just interesting to me to see a savior woman who's this fierce leader and then Carol's on the other side and yeah, they're sort of reflections of each other. And maybe, um, this leader is something that Carol's trying not to become, but even aside

[00:11:12] from that, it was just kind of cool to see these women who it's pretty much incidental that they're women in some ways, but they are. And I, I like that, you know, I, like I always liked. And orange is the new black, which I guess Alicia Witt was in this, the last season. I don't remember her. And I don't remember her role at all. But I and DB and I was like, I don't remember her. I didn't even watch the show. So, um, I'm, I'm that far behind on TV. That's a great show.

[00:11:42] I love that. And that's always a show I think about where, you know, there's this whole thing about women having just played partners and love interests and they're hardly ever the center until you get to later on in cinema with like Princess Leia. And there's probably examples before that, but anyway, um, orange is the new black. It's mostly women and they're all different types of women and of all different, um, sort

[00:12:07] of there's immoral women and there's crazy and there's fun and there's smart and everything else. But anyway, there's characters in their own right. And, um, so I felt like this was an episode sort of like that. I mean, I always kind of like to see it. It's a there. I don't know what season it's in, but later on, there's an episode where they're breaking into a place to scavenge, I think. And there are a bunch of sleeping, uh, walkers. I don't know what they're called. There's a term for it, I guess.

[00:12:37] And it's all the women doing the work, all the women. Yeah. That's opener of the final season, isn't it? Is that the opener of the final season? Yeah. So I know the one you mean. All right. Well, let's, let's get into our points. Do you want to go first, Robin? Sure. Let me just say first that one of the, also one of the reasons that I really liked this episode is that it's such a clear direct line from what happened with Carol in the episode before.

[00:13:04] Um, and I was listening to you guys yesterday and, um, well, first of all, I love Carol doing a chopped basket. She would definitely win. Um, she takes all the stuff out of the pantry that nobody else wants and puts things together. And, um, she's a really good cook and she, um, she's given out cookies and she had to scavenge for the flower. And you guys were saying that she's really kind of raising morale, which she clearly is. And she's buzzing around doing her thing.

[00:13:34] But I also wonder if in some way she's trying out who she was. Yeah. Yeah. And seeing if she can somehow slide back into that a little bit and reconcile that a little bit with who she is now, because she is so uncomfortable with who she is now. Um, and I, and she goes to Tobin on purpose, I think to seduce him. Um, because you know, for whatever reason, she's a woman. Um, he's a man.

[00:14:02] I think that she, like when she gave him the cookies, that wasn't necessarily the idea, but then there was a moment between them and that's like, got back, went back because she gave everybody cookies. She gave everybody cookies, but when she went to Tobin's place, then it was like, Oh, maybe there's something here. And then she went back. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and does she really want him or does she think she should? Does she, you know, I don't, I don't know. Um, but then he validates her strength. And so she, you know, she goes with him.

[00:14:32] So it, it just, it's really interesting to me because then of course she's so afraid, um, or seems to be so afraid when she's captive by with Paula and them. So that's another reason that I really, really liked it. I'm going to go with an easy first point. I really like Molly. Um, in this episode, she's all I can think of is she's so. Sort of a little bit, kinda like a Greek chorus a little bit commenting. Yeah.

[00:15:01] I loved her going on. Yeah. And she really doesn't have any skin in the game because we find out that she's, you know, a dead woman walking and everything, you know, and she just says. She must have lung cancer, right? She didn't outright say it, but that's what it seemed like. Yeah. It seems like it. Yeah. Um, she hates this place. She, and she calls Carol. She's a nervous little bird. Take your yoga breaths. You guys are worse than evangelical second graders. And then of course, um, you know, her important line is, you know, dead woman walking. We're in the same boat.

[00:15:31] Yeah. Well, I also loved when, um, Carol was either hyperventilating or pretending to hyperventilate. I think it was real, but you don't know for sure with her, uh, Carol. I mean, Molly said, honey, you need to take some yoga breaths and calm your ass down. And I think she could have delivered that line sounding more like a villain, but she actually seemed to care a little bit. And I thought that was wonderful. Like a little bit of color to these people. They're not just black and white.

[00:15:57] And then my favorite line though, was when, um, zombie Donnie bit her in the arm and she said, eat shit and die Donnie. Yeah. She's really, I really liked her character a lot. I was really kind of sad that she had to go the way she did, but she, she was good. She was good. And then of course she's, you know, Chekhov's, um, you know, lighter and cigarettes. So, um, you know, we, we get that later on. That's right. I didn't make that connection.

[00:16:26] They show up in the first act and they use them by the last acts, but, but yeah, so that's my first point is just that it's interesting to have her being a sort of an outside, she's orbiting around them, just kind of commenting on what's going on and, and, you know, watching and she's supposed to be guarding and, and just kind of being, I don't know, kind of being a smart asset sometimes. Um, you know, you guys are worse than evangelical second graders, which I, that just tickled me. Um, but yeah, so I like her.

[00:16:56] She added some color to it. I would say. She did. And then there's Donnie. Who's just a, you know, he's just a bitch. He just bitches and bitches and bitches. He's, you know, weak and mean and stupid. And of course he's in pain. Carol shot him. He wants to kill her and they keep stopping him, but he's, he's kind of an interesting little pause every once in a while too. And he's like, just kill her. We got to kill her. Um, you know, so, so they're, they're interesting, uh, to me as peripheral kind of orbiting characters. Donnie.

[00:17:25] Um, so he's, you know, complaining about his pain and then Paul knocks him out. And then, um, I think it's Molly who says, man, he really got you good. And she's like, men can't handle pain or something like that. Right. And I thought that was really funny. And I mean, I'm like, sort of like, well, his arm was probably going to fall off. So it was probably a lot, but also, um, I just love that line.

[00:17:53] And it made me think about this YouTube video. I watched once where they have these, uh, period pain simulators and they like strap it to your belly and they, they would, the one I saw, they would do it for a woman and say, okay, they ratchet up the pain until it was about where her normal menstrual pain was. And she's like, oh yeah, right about there.

[00:18:19] And then they'd give it to the boyfriend and give it like two notches below that or something. And people go, oh my God, what squirming and could hardly like you go through this all the time. I just thought that was really cool. So, uh, I'll put a link to one of those in the show notes. Amazing. That's very cool. Well, and everyone knows that when men are sick, they're just big babies, you know? Um, I can't be cause Jenny has no sympathy for that. Oh, that's right. She's a doctor. You're going to say living with a doctor, right?

[00:18:49] Yeah. It's kind of funny. Yeah. Cause my mom used to baby me and I was like sort of expecting that did not happen. Yeah. My husband was raised by his grandmother who babied him just horrifically. And, um, my mom was one of those. She was like, is there bone sticking out or blood? Right. No. Okay. Go back out. You're fine. You're good. You know? And, um, he expected that he expected to be babied.

[00:19:17] He got a cold after we'd been together for a little while and he was like, Oh, and I was like, well, okay. You okay. Here's a box of Kleenex. There's no blood or bone sticking out. So you're okay. I find myself babying my kids a little bit cause Jenny's not going to. It's funny how you just kind of do what you grew up with. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, Lucy, do you want to do points or do you just want to do? Yeah, I'm going to hit a point. Okay. What do you got? Uh, Michelle, I think.

[00:19:45] I've kind of forgotten entirely about the other women who weren't Paula in this. Um, and Michelle interested me because she's the most reserved of all the women, um, that we see. I think Molly, they sort of lean into the sort of big ass character, um, which is great. And Paula obviously kind of carries a lot of the episode, but Michelle's quite an interesting narrative device because, um, there's such a clear parallel to Maggie. They're a similar age.

[00:20:15] They don't look identical, but you know, they're a similar sort of, you can, if you saw a parallel group and you were told Michelle was the Maggie of that group, you could believe it. Like there's, there's clearly something kind of being drawn there. Um, and we find out a couple of things. We find out that there is corporal punishment going on with the saviors. Um, Michelle has lost part of her finger. She was punished for stealing gas.

[00:20:41] So there's some pretty brutal, uh, law enforcement going on on the savior side of things. We also find out that her boyfriend was blown up. So we can infer as readers of the text or watchers of the show that Daryl Abraham and Sasha probably killed her boyfriend. Oh, I didn't catch that. Okay. Yeah. Which is something that we didn't necessarily know before. No. He could have been blown up in another scenario. Maybe it was that main guy. She said he's a dick, but that could be any one of the saviors we've met so far.

[00:21:10] I mean, literally, um, we know that she lost pregnancy. This is where the bonding comes in with her and Maggie. And there's that very brutal moment later where they're fighting and she goes for Maggie's stomach. And it's a very visceral thing. And Carol shoots him in the head. And given that Carol, I think is wrestling with whether she wants to keep being a killing machine, but she was so quick to do that this episode. I think that that is one of the reasons why she's so upset is because she really doesn't

[00:21:40] want Maggie to lose her unborn baby. And Carol even told them, oh, she's pregnant. I'm like, what, what is your tactic here? But I think it might've just been straightforward, like hoping for some empathy for Maggie. Yeah. You know, it's hard to tell. Hoping for women to help women, I guess. Yeah. Well, and Michelle clearly, I mean, she just went for it right there. Right. Across her abdomen. There was, there was no question what she was doing. Right. Yeah. Cause in the moment where they, like you said, Lucy, it seemed like they were bonding a little bit and you think, okay, maybe Michelle's a way out of this, but then she just goes for

[00:22:09] her stomach and it's like, what are you doing, man? It's like, you're trying to inflict the same fate on someone else that you had on yourself or something like that. It was so weird. Probably just as well, just. Survival. Absolutely bone chillingly angry that someone got the thing that was taken away from her. Like that's probably it. Like it's, I mean, but it's also, as we know from last week with the saviors, they're all a bunch of ding dong.

[00:22:35] So it's probably like, she's a dick as well, but it is this visceral, it's, it's very similar to what I think's going on with Carol generally is with Carol. Like, she's had the proposition put to her that you can have this life without killing people, but she's killed people and she feels horrified by it and doesn't know how to live with that cognitive dissonance of what she's done. With Michelle, she's subscribed to this pretty fucking horrible life. She's lost a pregnancy. She's lost her boyfriend. A finger. Yeah.

[00:23:05] And looking at Maggie, she's like, there's a way of living that isn't that like how, how dare you have that? How, how is this fair that I've had to do this and eat shit and you've been able to, to have a cushy life. Um, so yeah, I thought Michelle was an interesting, an interesting character to watch this time around. I thought the way they put her up against Maggie and the interrogation was not a violent one. It was two women facing off in a room with probably more in common than they have apart,

[00:23:36] but it wasn't enough to shift the scales in any meaningful way. And if anything, it exacerbated it by proving you can have the moral high grade. Um, well, and then also when Maggie said to her, uh, I'm sorry, when she found out she lost your baby and she goes, no, you're not. And then she said something. Was that when she said one of us is going to die? And yeah. And then when Maggie and Carol escape, Maggie's like, okay, we have to kill all of them.

[00:24:06] And I don't think Michelle was dead by that point. Right. So it's like, yeah, she wasn't sorry. Or, you know, it's just all bullshit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, and Michelle seems to waver a little bit, you know, at different times when Maggie's talking, she seems like she softens a little bit somehow. It's really subtle. And, but then she distances herself. Paula calls Carol Carol and Michelle calls Maggie bitch.

[00:24:34] She never calls her by her name, which I thought was interesting. In the way. How I talk to all my female friends. I don't know any of their names. Bitch. One thing I really find interesting about this episode is cause we've seen Carol just be stone cold. Right. And she just John wicked her way through seven wolves two months ago in the timeline of the show. And now suddenly she's like all worried about it.

[00:25:02] And I can believe that someone would go through a crisis of conscience when they had a little time to settle down and think about it. And with Morgan whispering in your ear and stuff. But anyway, so we're seeing her hyperventilate and being, um, seeming to be scared and, you know, grabbing a cross and saying it helped her get through when her, was it her husband died? I mean, her daughter. Her daughter. Yeah. Okay. That makes more sense.

[00:25:27] And so you're like, um, Carol bullshits a lot to try to get people to underestimate her. So is that all she's doing? And she just needs this cross so she can try to, uh, get this duct tape off. And I think that is true, but I also think it's both. I think there's real feelings in there and that's, what's interesting about this episode. And now that we're talking about, um, like Michelle similar with her, like, I think there

[00:25:56] was sort of a bonding with Maggie, but also maybe that calcified into more of a resentment. It's just not, if we're going to give a lot of credit to the writing here is that, uh, things are complicated and complex and one feeling can morph into another one, or you can have both at the same time. Right. Or am I just giving it too much credit? It's Angela King. So I could believe that, you know, it could be that complicated. I'm sure she had mixed feelings the whole time.

[00:26:25] Um, you know, looking at she, I mean, she had a visible, visible reaction when Maggie said, we decided to choose something. Um, when she asked her, you know, Kara or Paula said something like, wow, wow. How was that? Wasn't very smart to get knocked up. And, and, um, Maggie says, well, you know, when was it ever smart? And, um, then she says, but we were choosing something and Michelle's face changes.

[00:26:53] So I think at some point she realizes that she can't continue if she's going to let Maggie get under her skin, if she's going to be who she's with and, um, going to be the person that she is. She can't let Maggie get under her skin and make, make her. Cause she started to. Cause she started to. Yeah. Yeah. I think it can be definitely both for sure. Okay. Let me get into my first point, which is we didn't know about the saviors when we got

[00:27:21] to this episode before, unless you're a comic book reader, but if not, so just sort of trying to figure out what Rick and his group could figure out from this encounter and what we could learn about them. Um, and so we learned that, um, one of the guys, uh, Donnie, he said they've taken more than eight people before. Actually, none of our people heard that, but anyway, it just sounds like the saviors have

[00:27:49] practice in killing lots of people. Um, they seem very organized when Paula radio someone for help, the guy that's 15 miles out, she uses code words like Omega Omega saviors down. And they already have another rendezvous point, a safe house to meet. They have a system of which radio channels to use. And so they just seem very well organized, trained, resourceful and ready for tough situations. And, and I think hearing all that when you're watching the first time you're like, Oh, I

[00:28:17] think Rick probably underestimated these people, you know? Yeah. I was gonna say, it feels like if you didn't think they made a stupid decision already, then it really gets hammered home. It's like, Oh, these guys are, if anything more organized than our guys. Like, right. Right. Yeah. I thought, I thought of the old thing. It was like, why did they never have a plan? Why don't they ever have a rally point? All these things, like, especially at the prison, you know? Well, yeah, get on the bus and go, but then go where, and where were they supposed to meet up? And people are searching for each other.

[00:28:47] And yeah. So I noticed that, that they were, I was like, wow, they were, I wasn't sure how long she had actually been a big leader. Cause she made a couple of mistakes and said, Oh, I should have done that first. Should have done, you know, a couple things. Um, but she clearly is in charge of these, this group of people that are getting ready to come and they're very organized. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know anything about radio transmissions or all that, but I was really impressed with the calls, you know, Omega Omega and go to this channel and that channel.

[00:29:16] And, you know, yeah, they really, really had it together. One of the things I was trying to remind myself of in the last three minutes, cause I was like, I should have looked this up earlier. Um, is the leadership roles of women in the saviors more widely. I thought there was an episode later where we see more, but I feel like this is not something we see again. Is Laura a leader? It feels like. Or just one of the saviors. I'd say she's like a higher class ding dong.

[00:29:46] Mm hmm. But not necessarily. I don't think she's the level that Paula is here. Yeah. And it's interesting to me cause I was desperately trying to remind myself like, is there another one? But yeah, it, it feels like this is maybe this is why no women get promoted is after this event. Yeah. Look what happened. I mean, the saviors, they, I don't know how good their HR department is, but they need to, they have a. It's probably, I'm trying to think which savior it would be. That one that really fucking hates his life who gets sent to hilltop all the time.

[00:30:15] I bet he's the HR guy. He's the HR guy. He's like, Oh God, please don't make me do the paperwork. Ah. Um, yeah, it is. Yeah. I do think the admin side of the saviors in this is quite entertaining in that say what you like about the saviors. We've got a system. And Rick could learn, Rick and crew could learn, learn from this. Yeah. Rick and crew. Kind of thing. Um, also we, we, well, we already kind of knew from the Dwayne Sherry episode, but it's

[00:30:44] reinforced here that they have strict rules and harsh punishments because Michelle stole gas to look for her boyfriend's body and they cut her finger off. If, if it was this guy that Daryl blew up, then that just happened recently. That would make sense. Cause she's holding it like it hurts. And so, and you know, here's another, I should be making a list here, but people, Negan fans who always argue, Hey, if you knew it, if you were watching from his point of view, you

[00:31:13] would be on his side. What about this? Somebody stole gas and he had her finger cut off. Is that okay? It's what, but there seems, I, I find there's a bit of narrative inconsistency. And it's partly because of what comes later where they try and like retroactively take a lot of it away is, I don't know that we see this kind of, we see the people getting thrown in the fire and we see the branding and that's all very comic book accurate, but stuff like this.

[00:31:43] Um, I dunno, the food, the way that it's written and the way that the saviors kind of explain themselves and that Negan presents himself, it always feels like it's a bit slippery. Like who's doing that? Is it Negan himself or is it someone like Simon? I'm not, I agree with you in the sense of like, yeah, that's fucked up. Like clearly Negan's not looked at that and gone. That's terrible. Stop doing that. No, it comes from him. I think. Yeah. But the narrative I think writes itself. It sometimes has him do extreme things and then other times kind of dials it back.

[00:32:13] And it's one of the things I don't like about the storyline is it feels like it lacks internal consistency quite a lot of the time. I mean, in the Daryl, Dwayne and Sherry episode, like he sent his guys after them for stealing medicine for what was it? Diabetes, insulin. Yeah. But Sherry and her, well, no, Sherry does become a wife, but neither of them gets anything cut off. It's just Dwight that gets branded. It's branded. I mean, it just doesn't seem good. You know, there's. No, it's none of it is good.

[00:32:43] I think it's just interesting that it's never as cut and dry as we'd like in terms of what definitely happens or definitely doesn't. To me, it seems pretty cut and dry that if you're in an organization where if you steal gas to go look for your boyfriend's body, you get a finger cut off. That's bad. And I think Negan being the head of that organization, then it rests on his shoulders, the kind of things that happen. And then all the other things that happen are kind of more evidence towards that, like

[00:33:12] the sending guys out for the insulin. Then there's the thing with Simon where he like killed a whole, all the men at Oceanside and Negan was pissed about that. So that sort of throws in this little like thing, like, see, it's not always what Negan wants, but I don't think that nullifies all of it, you know, just because. No, neither do I. I don't think it nullifies the thing. I just think the writing is inconsistent around it. To me, it lacks an internal logic of like what definitely happens when things happen.

[00:33:40] So you can't pin it on him and say he's bad or something like that or. No, you can definitely say he's bad. It just feels like it's not as. I don't know. It's not as definitive a rule in terms of his rulership. I mean, like the rule of Negan is not. It seems a bit arbitrary sometimes. Yeah. Like some of the things that do and don't happen. Oh yeah. To me doesn't feel like comic book Negan where the rules are very defined. Defined. Defined.

[00:34:07] I think sometimes with the show they were pushing the edges of what can this be? What should this be? And then they kind of double back on things sometimes. I think it's not an Negan apologist thing. It's I don't think the writing is amazing thing around this sometimes. I think they haven't quite hit the tone right. Yeah, I guess. Okay. I think I do get it. That's not the same punishment. Right. For stealing. Is that what you're saying? It's different for. Yeah. It just seems like a weird one.

[00:34:36] I'm like, well, other people had their faces burned off and things in the fire that it. It feels like they don't quite know what Negan's going to be yet in the writers room. So they're doing stuff like this and they're like, yeah, what's he going to be? And I'm like, well, you have a whole text that tells you what he's going to be. Well, I don't know why. I mean, I just, to me, I mean, I, you know, fine. That's the way you feel when I hear that my reaction is if you steal, there's going to be a really severe punishment.

[00:35:00] It doesn't, it's not always the same, but it's excessive, you know, that's, and, and I do, I do think that it makes sense to have someone like that. Who's this sort of a narcissistic cult leader. Who's like, I'll just decide in the moment, you know, the, let the punishment fit the crime and just come to me and tell me when somebody does something wrong and then I'll just make it up on the spot and you'll be amazed at my creativity or something like that. You know? Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

[00:35:29] And he is really mercurial. So it could be one of those things depends on how he feels, but it's always, you know, I was thinking about it's, it's, it's inconsistent with him too. In some ways, because they say that he was a teacher, a gym teacher, and that he really loved, you know, kids and was, and we find out later that, you know, he was online gaming with them and everything. But a person that would do that seems like the kind of gym teacher who would make people run until they throw up.

[00:35:58] And he doesn't. All gym teachers. They're all evil. Yeah. Especially the bit. Yeah. But, you know, so, yeah. So I see what you're saying, Lucy, that it does seem like it's kind of, it depends on the moment and they're not really sure what they want to do with him. Is it because they feel like he was too much? I didn't read the comics. Yeah, I felt like this was weirdly mild. I think you've hit on something there, Robin. It's like, I was like, oh, is that a Negan thing to do?

[00:36:24] It seems oddly, by Negan standards, I'm like, huh. It just doesn't fit with kind of the more extreme stuff that we see him do. I'm just like, okay, yeah, I guess. It just doesn't feel like, I don't know, it's like witnessing a crime and being told this was definitely this person and me being like, does it seem like that? You don't really need a finger. It's no big deal. Well, and it was her, well, it's really medieval, isn't it? They used to, didn't they, I'm not a medievalist like Lucy, but didn't they used to cut people's hands off? Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

[00:36:54] Yeah, there was a lot of belief about like, the punishment should fit the crime. So like, you know, if you spoke ill of someone, you could get your tongue cut out or if you spoke or if you stole a hand or finger or something like that. So it does, you know, if it was any other Walking Dead villain group, I'd be like, yeah, okay. It's just, there's something about it that to me just doesn't feel like something Negan would do. And not because he's good, but because if anything, he's worse. Anyway, I didn't mean to derail us by talking about the finger.

[00:37:24] All right. So let me get back to what the saviors, what we learned about the saviors from this. So they're always looking for more victims to steal from. Like when Michelle's interrogating Maggie, she wants to know, she keeps asking, where are you based? Sounds like a good place. Of course, she wants to know that. And then she says, the way you stay alive is you produce for us. And at that moment, I was feeling a little more empathetic towards Michelle.

[00:37:51] So I was reading into that, that she also knows the way she stays alive is to produce for Negan. You know, we've just seen that she had her body part chopped off. So she's, and yet she's still back being his lackey. So she knows that I got to keep doing this anyway, or else I'm going to die. It also struck me, of course, he cut off her pinky, which the tip of her pinky, which you don't really need. But she said her boyfriend, eh, he was a dick. You know, it was no big deal.

[00:38:21] But it's almost like it had to be more than that if you were willing to steal gas when you do something bad. She's metabising it. Yeah. She's trying to make it like. That's right. And she says to Maggie, well, you had time to make babies. So you must live in a really, well, she did too. You know, she made a baby. And I'm guessing that was her first offense. You know, it probably gets worse with each one. Yeah. So then. But it was interesting that she was willing to do that and risk, because he could have cut her hand off just as easily. Right.

[00:38:51] Yeah. But she learned her lesson because now she's back in line. So then they think they're the good guys. As Michelle says, you're not the good guys. You should know this. And, and, you know, we always hear that people, they think of themselves as the hero of their own story. And I think that's generally true. But I'm pretty sure when I first saw this, I didn't think it was believable that a savior could think there were the good guys when they do what they do.

[00:39:16] But now in ever since this episode aired in the real world, I've seen some people excuse some super fucked up shit. And I'm not just talking about who you probably think I'm talking about. I'm just saying it happens. And, um, even when Carol tells Paula what happened, the saviors attacked my people and then my people killed them. Meaning Abraham, Daryl, and Sasha blew them up. And Paul says, okay, fair play.

[00:39:43] You were just defending yourselves, but see your people killed them on the road, right? Blew them to pieces. So why not stop? And I'm like, why don't you say, because we knew your people were going to keep attacking innocence and would eventually get to us. That's why, like, I want to know what Paula would say to that. She's sort of making it out. Like we're all the same here. But what makes the saviors worse, in my opinion, is the unprovoked.

[00:40:10] They kill innocence and steal from people that that needs to be stopped somehow. Right. You don't just say, oh, I don't want to try to stop them or else I'll be a bad guy too. No, that's ridiculous. So anyway, they think of themselves as the good guys. They're in a cult. So when Carol says to Paula, you know, we heard about this guy, Negan, he sounds like a maniac. We had to stop him. And Molly says, sweetie, we are all Negan.

[00:40:39] And I'm just like, that's, that feels very culty to me where this leader sets himself up as a sole authority to be feared and worshipped. And if you don't serve him, you get punished. And his followers end up taking his point of view and sort of parroting everything he says and acting the way he acts. And that should also sound familiar to a lot of people right now, by the way. So anyway.

[00:41:11] Then at the end, I mean, just building on that same thing, when Rick says to this guy, Primo, your friends are dead. No one's coming for you. So you might as well talk. Was Negan in that building last night or was he here? And the guy says, both. I'm Negan, shithead. And Rick takes that literally, right? He shoots him in the head because he thinks he found the leader. And Carol's standing right there going, oh, oh, wait, I don't think he, he's Negan. They just all say that. Yeah.

[00:41:41] So funny story. They are all Negan. Yeah. All late. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's another thing I learned that you can't take them literally all the time. So I really put, I put the blame on Negan for all these deaths because he, you know, it's just, this episode is so brutal and dark. And Carol doesn't want to kill any of these people, but ends up pretty much killing all of them.

[00:42:09] And you could see a world where they would have gotten involved with another group and would have been okay. But they got involved with the saviors and I really do think of it as a cult and they just got wrapped up in that attitude of his. And it caused all this conflict that could have been avoided. I think, I don't know.

[00:42:34] I mean, Paula did say that she killed a bunch of people and who knows if that was before she ended up with a savior. So maybe she was already of the right vibe for them when she came upon them, you know. She was the coffee, not the water. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's, that's interesting. Cause one of the things that I've, that I put down sort of for one of my points is that love is the difference between them. Really?

[00:43:04] Carol and Maggie ended up in a group that's founded on love and respect. And, um, caring about each other and being loyal to each other and faithful to each other. And Paula and Michelle ended up in a group where there is no love. There's no love at all. Um, just, it's just fear, you know, just survival and fear. Yeah. Yeah. And it's my theory.

[00:43:30] I have always, it's always been my theory that, that phrase, the ones who live that, um, Scott Gimple also thinks of it as the ones who love, you know, and that the whole story of the walking dead is like, we're trying, these characters are working to try not to lose their humanity and become like the walking dead. And that these characters that they're with right now, Paula and all the rest of them have lost it. So they don't have love or humanity or their souls anymore. No, they don't have anything like that.

[00:43:59] Nothing like that. Of course, at all, at all. Um, but I think that makes that. And, and I think that's one of the reasons that, um, Carol besides, besides Morgan, I think that's one of the reasons that Carol struggles so much because she, I, I don't know, this might, I might be out on a limb with this, but it seems like she's afraid she's going to lose that.

[00:44:25] Um, feeling of, of love, not for her people, but being able to look at other people as human beings and, and she's going to be like, become like Paula. Yeah. And Paula killed her boss at the jump. She says he was the first one I killed. I killed him right away because he was going to kill. I was going to, he was going to drag me down. So, um, uh, it kind of makes you feel like Paula was not grounded in love.

[00:44:52] But well, of course her, you know, her boss, and that's one of the things that she and Carol have in common is that she was kind of, um, prisoner to this. Boss that, you know, I think we've all had at some point or another who didn't care about her and just all she had to do was get him the coffee and everything. Carol, of course, with Ed and Carol really was timid and quiet and, and didn't really do anything to save herself. But Paul, it was Paula pretending. It was Paula just playing a role. She killed him right at the jump.

[00:45:23] I mean, we don't know the situation, but I think she said if she hadn't done that, she would have died. And then it took her a while to start feeling bad when she killed people. So it could have been one of those situations where when we saw it, it would have felt like a tragedy or something, you know, not just like a vicious killing. And who knows? I don't know. It did take her a while. But you're right. Maybe she was already kind of like, uh, just not a great person, but was sort of meek about it.

[00:45:53] And then she got to fully realize her power in the zombie apocalypse. Kind of like Negan, you know? Yeah. Which Carol, you know, has fully recognized her power in the zombie apocalypse too. Yes. I don't know. Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of parallels with these two. I think that was kind of the point for Carol to see herself in Paula and then be afraid that she would go to that extreme. Yes. Or something like that. Okay.

[00:46:22] Let's move on to something else. Robin, what else you got? Oh, gosh, I got a couple of things. Um, well, Carol and Paula, we were talking about them. Um, you know, similarities. Paula's married, has four daughters. She lost all of them tied to a demanding boss. Killed him right away. Um, killed, you know, didn't feel bad about killing until she got to double digits. And she says, I'm still me, but better. And I think that's one of the differences between her and Carol.

[00:46:51] Carol is not still her. She has changed dramatically. Dramatically. Um, and she doesn't necessarily think that it's better. It's necessary. And. Stronger. She has to do. She is stronger. Yeah, definitely stronger. Definitely stronger. Um, but it's, it's, it's, I don't know. Um, and Paula says, I see exactly who you are. The things I've done, the things I've given up.

[00:47:20] Um, Carol has also done things and given up things, but, um, and she was married and had one daughter, but she also lost Lizzie and Mika and in some ways, Beth. So she lost four girls too. Um, also tied to her, um, abusive husband, which every time I think about this, I think about that. It's just to me, a totally breathtaking scene when they're in the quarry and Ed is bitten and she kills him when, so that he won't turn.

[00:47:50] Yeah. Um, he's already dead. Yeah. And she just goes feral when she does it. And I, I, I really, that I still all these years later, when I think of that, it's still just, it, it, it really, it really moved me at the time. And she also killed to double digits, but she feels bad and guilty about it. Um, she has changed, but, um, Paula says, I'm still me.

[00:48:15] Is Carol still herself or is she somebody that she doesn't really recognize? Um, I don't know. Does any of that make sense? Um, I mean, it's a little like the way that she's been in recognition. Like, see you're like, Oh, this guy, Pete is causing trouble. You know, you're going to have to kill him, you know, or, um, arguing with, uh, Morgan and, and actually going out and killing people when, when, you know, like these wolves and everything.

[00:48:45] And then now she's really wrestling with it and doesn't want to, like, she didn't kill Paula a couple of times when she could have. And it feels believable to me that she could have that shift, but we didn't really see it on screen unless I missed something. So it feels a little bit like when I used to watch soaps as a kid and they'd come to the end of a storyline and start something new. And sometimes the characters were just completely changed into another person, like suddenly become evil. And it feels a little bit like that.

[00:49:14] Like, Oh, they decided to shift course with Carol. I didn't necessarily feel organic to her story. So that's bothering me a little bit, but I like it in this shift of her to not want to kill. Uh, it's feels like before she was always the one who's where Paula is right now going, um, Hey, it's a harsh world, but you have to kill. I mean, she was saying that to Tyrese. She was saying it to Morgan. She's saying it to Rick. And now all of a sudden she's like, I don't want to kill.

[00:49:42] I, I, I, I, you know, and then, and then by the end of this episode, she's like, I should have just killed the guy. Like, I feel like she's back where she was before, you know, yeah, it is kind of, I mean, I don't know that Morgan, that she and Morgan have had interactions enough to really have him under her skin that much. She just seemed to think he did not respect him at all. Right. From our point of view. Yeah.

[00:50:07] And you know, and I don't know, was it just the, the viciousness of the way she had to kill the wolves or, or what was it that really caused her to be so upset about it and to be so different from what she had been. I mean, I was really shocked that the whole time that she was like, Rick, you're going to have to kill, you're going to have to kill him. You're going to have to kill him talking about Pete, you know? And I was kind of like, why does, I mean, I, I get it. I mean, I get it.

[00:50:35] A bad or you can't have somebody like that. It's dangerous. It's terrible. They're terrible. He's terrible. But you don't, she just jumped right to, you've got to kill him. Yeah. You've got to kill him. You know? I think with Carol, it's about what we process when we're finally safe. Yeah. I think up until that point, she's, her back's up. She's searching. So that we see Carol in a good place. I'm thinking aloud as I'm talking, as I'm thinking.

[00:51:05] Um, the, we see Carol at the start of season three or season four rather at the prison. And that's kind of the, the real kind of pulling of Carol into the front and center as part of the crew of the show. She's pretty comfortable there. She and Daryl are getting on well, like things are going okay. And that's when she takes her first big swing with David and Karen, which as we know is incredibly wrong. But she does that because the security is threatened.

[00:51:34] And that's when she has her fight or flight on, she makes reckless decisions. Um, as a lot of us are prone to do. And I think what we're seeing in this come down now of her suddenly reckoning with all the things that she's done up until this kind of Negan interaction where we start to realize that there's a bigger threat ahead. Carol's suddenly thinking, I'm sitting in this suburban life again. The danger has passed and I have to reckon with awful things that I've done.

[00:52:03] And I think that would fuck your head up quite a lot. And I think the way that she's failing to, to deal with it and reconcile it was really catalyzed more by Morgan coming in and being like, actually, I live for really more. Forcing her to look at it. Yeah. So to me, on this rewatch, it makes a lot of sense in a way that it didn't the first time around that she's like suddenly like, oh my God, I killed a child.

[00:52:28] Like, you know, these kind of things that when you're running and running with the track being laid in front of you, you don't have time to think about. But unfortunately, this whole situation with the saviors is going to kick into high gear before she can really process any of that. And then we're going to get, I think I remember Carol in a raincoat with a gun hidden in the pocket, weeping going, don't make me kill you. So we watch that. And here, she's like so emotional about all of this.

[00:52:56] And like I said before, it seems like a combination of acting meek in order to have her foes underestimate her, but also actually feeling like these emotions. And then, and I thought before it was even said that I think she's feeling because she's feeling this because she doesn't want to have to kill. She's not afraid for her own life. She's afraid for Maggie's life and Maggie's unborn baby. But she's like, I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill all of you.

[00:53:24] And I don't want to be in this situation again right now. I was just, in fact, having a crisis about that recently. And now here I am in a position where I have to kill everyone. And then when Paula says, after Carol did kill a couple of people, oh, if you can do that, then what are you afraid of? And she was like, I'm afraid I'm going to have to do this or whatever. I forget the lines. Yeah, because you know she can do it. That's a terrifying thing to know about yourself is to know you can do that. But I love when Paula realizes, because every time Paula's like, you know, oh, you're going to kill me?

[00:53:54] And we're like, you don't even know her. And then when Paula kind of starts to realize, oh, wait, you were like me, but you changed too. So we're kind of alike, you know, that's kind of fun. Because she totally didn't suspect it before. Carol Folder. Oh, she totally bought the act. And I think it was an act at first when she started, when Carol started to sort of hyperventilate and be upset.

[00:54:19] I think she was feeling, but I don't think that she was as, you know, over the top with it as she became. And Paula bought that. And even Maggie looks at her like, I'm not really sure what's going on here. Are you for real?

[00:54:36] And then realizes that she is for real and she's hyperventilating and they need to help her because she's going to pass out or whatever you do when you're hyperventilating. But Carol is afraid right from the jump in the woods. And I don't think that's an act. When they come up behind him and they cock the gun and she's shocked and she's afraid right from the beginning.

[00:55:05] And yeah, probably mainly for Maggie because they've already had that confrontation where she says, you're not supposed to be here. You're not even, you're supposed to be a different person. She's already been upset about Maggie. You know, you're supposed to be the farmer's daughter who marries Glenn and has a baby and living happily on the farm. And this is not supposed to be happening to you.

[00:55:28] And then when it is happening to them, it's, it, it, it just, it frightens her to death that she, they're in that situation. And that's really punctuated when she shoots Michelle in the head. Very punctuated when she shoots, she just walks up and does it, you know? And of course, Michelle spends the entire time pointing her gun, you know, at, I don't know if she ever intended to shoot anybody or, or kill anybody, but she spends her whole time being really threatening like that.

[00:55:56] And so Carol just is like, I'm, I'm, I'm done playing. I'm. Yeah. Well, she cut it. Did she cut Maggie or just cut her shirt? But she went for the. Cut her shirt. Yeah. She cut her shirt. It was a close call. Like very close call. Very close call. At first I thought she had the first time I saw it, I thought, Oh my God. But then there was no blood or anything. It was just her, it was just her shirt. So, um, but you know, Carol is just, um, I don't know. She's so, so enigmatic in this.

[00:56:23] You just don't know what she's really thinking in this episode. And that's one of the things that I really liked about it. Yeah. Because to me, it felt like not, you don't know in a way that the writers don't know, or the actors doesn't know. It felt more like she, it's her feeling things, but also putting on a bit of a show and just going through a lot right now. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:51] Cause she does know right from the beginning that the only way they're going to get out of there is, is they're going to have to be violent. They're going to have to kill them. She knows that. And like you said, she doesn't want to. Yeah. She doesn't want to go back there. She's resisting, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Lucy. Such a cute top of Maggie's. It was such a tragedy. I would. And nice jacket too. They were all looking cute. What can I say? You ripped my jacket. You ripped my t-shirt.

[00:57:21] It is so much harder when it's an all one story episode. I'm trying to kind of pull out what the points were. Cause we've really, we've gotten into Paula in quite a big way. So I'm just going to have a look and see if there's anything about Paula that I've not, we've not really covered. Um, I was surprised Donnie was her partner when she dropped that one. And I was like that guy, I feel like she could do better. I was watching with, uh, um, closed caption the second time and he called her babe early on.

[00:57:49] But, um, yeah, she said, I mean, he's just a warm body and I, I'd just kill him in his sleep. No problem. Um, women, the bar is low. Um, her death was more gruesome than I remembered. I thought she burned to death on the kill floor. So I was genuinely shocked when she got, um, I wrote in my notes kebabed and then face bitten. Oh, what a way to go.

[00:58:16] Um, and I thought Carol, I have such a soft spot in a show, whether it's a comedy or a drama where someone has to do an impression of somebody. Over a radio. And I thought Carol did a pretty good Paula impression. Yeah, she did. Made out on that count. Although, yeah, she did great. But those guys, I just can imagine those guys being like, okay, so we're supposed to go in here on the kill floor and just hang out. Even though no one's here on the kill floor. Okay.

[00:58:46] Why does it smell like gasoline in here? Oh, well, I'm not worried about it. Jason, they're ding-dongs. I can hardly breathe. Don't make us over the ding-dongs again. Yeah. Wow, the floor's a little slippery. They sound like, yeah. Yes. One of them literally is like, whoa. Should we all come in or, yeah, no, let's all come in because. Does anyone all smell gasoline? No? Okay, cool. Like, oh my God. It's too funny. Um, I guess my only other note is with Primo at the end.

[00:59:12] I thought an interesting choice they made because I didn't know if at this point Jeffrey Dean Morgan had been cast. I think he had been going into the back half of season six. Um, the shift that the actor who plays Primo did where they ask him about Negan. And it's almost like he realizes he's about to die and he sort of straightens his back and says, I'm Negan. But it was almost like he was channeling a bit of Jeffrey Dean Morgan. And I quite like that as a choice.

[00:59:37] Um, I'm interested to see in the next episode if they are like, was he, was he Negan? Does anyone know? Did anyone else get any intel on whether that's Negan or not? I can't remember if they go ahead. And Carol's like, well, the other people said they were Negan too. What? Yeah. Wait, was one of them Negan? No, none of them was Negan. No, no idea. Could anyone who's Negan put their hand up, please? Um, and that's an interesting, uh, sort of, uh, thing for a cult leader-like person to do.

[01:00:07] Because to me, it's sort of like they've all, like I said, taken on his attitude, point of view, uh, his goals and values. But it's also a way to maybe keep yourself mysterious and safe. Because your folks don't know what's going on or who's Negan or what, you know? It's also a persona to put on in moments of fear, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It was an interesting choice.

[01:00:36] I thought Primo did a lot with those moments. He even had a Negan-like line. I forget what it was, but. I'm Negan shithead. He said something else in there too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I like the reunions with the wider group and I also loved, there was a moment with Paula where, um, she realizes they must be close because it was too easy over the radio. I was like, oh, this is good storytelling. I like this. Um, Daryl asking Carol if she's good and him, her saying no, I thought was a really just lovely.

[01:01:06] Angela Kang writes Carol and Daryl scenes. I would say outstandingly well. Um, and obviously Maggie and Glenn reunite and it's probably the last time they'll reunite because after this, it's not good. You know, I don't know if this is true, but I read that, um, Norman Reedus wanted a different showrunner on the Daryl show than Angela Kang, who was originally supposed to be the showrunner of that show. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.

[01:01:34] And, uh, it would have been interesting to see what it would have been like with her at the helm, but I like it. I like the show. So yeah, maybe just for something fresh. I don't know. Hmm. Hmm. So that's kind of my muddled thoughts there, which are just kind of plugging in some of the, not gaps, but adding some flavor to some of the things you guys had said. I have some other notes, but no big ones.

[01:01:57] I probably have sort of the same thing because I had a really long one about Carol and Paula being in the, in the same boat. Um. Oh, that's the title of the episode. Well, yeah, cause at first Molly, who we think has lung cancer said I'm a dead woman, woman walking, which puts us in exactly the same boat. But it's also about Carol and Paula having started out. Meek. Cause Steve called in this week.

[01:02:25] Subservient and having been forged into killers by the ZA. Yeah. Uh, Steve called in. Yeah. He'll say. Yeah. He'll. He'll see episode title. Yeah. I heard him in my head say it when they said it. I was like, Steve. Steve. Uh, so Paula, let's see. The boiling water story was sort of interesting about Paula saying she fetched coffee and then, um, who told her the story?

[01:02:53] Her mom or something about how. Yeah. She was working for the shitty boss and her mom told her the story, but the coffee is a kind of way to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does it make, it's like the boiling water is like adversity. And the question is whether it makes you soft, like carrot hardens you like hard boiled egg. Or she said, you changed the water like coffee. And I'm like, I don't really understand.

[01:03:18] I guess that means you changed the situation, the adverse situation somehow, but that doesn't really work for the zombie apocalypse. It's like, so there's boiling water. The carrot's the bad one because it breaks you. The hard boiled egg is preferable because you become something much harder and stronger. The coffee and the water merge together. It's like, it's sort of like, I don't know, Bane and Batman or something. Like I looked into the darkness.

[01:03:47] I was born in the darkness or whatever. Like it's, you become part of that pressure that's put on you and you become powerful because of it. Well, see, I didn't look at it quite like that. I looked at it as because she said, you know, my mom said the coffee was preferable. That means the other two are not preferable. So of course, yeah, adversity or whatever it is, making you soft like a carrot is no good. But hard isn't good either. I think that's sort of the theme of The Walking Dead.

[01:04:16] Like, are we going to respond to this by becoming so hard that we lose our humanity? I think that's the hard boiled egg. But then what is the coffee? Yeah, it's like Bane merging with Batman or something. I don't know. I'm just hungry now. I'm just like, yeah, I'm hungry. I'm like, I want to chow down on some carrot sticks with a cup of coffee. But I would say I prefer a jammy egg, not hard boiled, but like, you know, like a ramen egg. To me, that's the sweet spot.

[01:04:45] This is why I don't do advice. So then Carol, like when Carol says, do you really believe in that crap? I mean, Paul says, pointing at Carol's cross, do you really believe in that crap? And I'm wondering too. And Carol says, faith got me through the death of my daughter. And I like, I do think there's a chance that's real, but also she's going to use it to cut through her duct tape.

[01:05:12] Oh, well, we saw her in the church with Lori after Sophia was lost. We never see her or hear her say anything about faith again after that. So I don't know if that's 100% true. But yeah, she does sharpen it. It's probably just total false, right? Probably. Yeah, I think it almost seems like it. Although maybe it's just been something that's been hidden in her heart and she doesn't really.

[01:05:41] And that's one of the things that's making her feel bad about what she's done. But she's never said a word about it. So I was kind of like, not really sure. But it was interesting that Paula says all that stuff to her and she starts hyperventilating. And Maggie was trying to escape right from the beginning. She started trying to cut through the duct tape the minute they walked.

[01:06:01] And Carol sat there just holding the rosary and, you know, just sort of making us and making them, I guess, think that she was just giving up. Yeah. I think she's really having an emotional time here. Yeah. I really do. Which is, it is weird for Carol because in seasons past, she would have just been like, let's figure out how to get the hell out of this, you know?

[01:06:25] So, um, let's see, Donnie says, uh, we should kill them right now because they shot me that this one right here. And, um, they say no. And then he goes, we should at least shoot Carol in the arm, you know, like to get even. And Paul says no to that too. And I think that's kind of revealing that maybe Paula is not as cruel as she wants everyone to think. Or otherwise, why say no to that?

[01:06:51] I'm not saying she should have said yes, but it's just, and then, then the guy starts beating everybody up, including Paula. And she knocks him out. So she was sort of like, okay, I'm on, I'm not on your side right now, which was good. Yeah. I thought it was interesting that she didn't want him to, this is, I think that's partly a psychological thing of like, I don't want you to hurt other women. I don't know that there was part of me that's like, this is about how he is with her. Isn't it? It's like, yeah, I could see that.

[01:07:21] Yeah. Like I don't want to. Plus she wants them as insurance. Yeah. I mean, but he could shoot her in the arm and I think you're right. I think it was sort of her being protective for a second there, which is another sort of me saying this is all not like totally black and white, which I think is really interesting. Um, then Carol says, you don't have to do this. You don't have to fight. And Molly says, your people kill all my people. Of course we got to fight. And I'm sort of like, well, she sort of has a point there, but you guys started it.

[01:07:51] And then I loved when Carol's real stealth started finally coming out. She goes to Paula, you're the one who's afraid to die and you're going to, you will die. That's what's going to happen if you don't work this out. Uh, I'm like, I was just glad to see that it didn't serve her anymore to pretend, I guess. I know that was very disorganized, but that's where that point ended.

[01:08:17] For a very linear episode, I feel like it's, it's a messy one to talk about. And yeah, I don't know. Yeah. We've been back and forth over different things several times. Yeah. Cause it's, it's, it's, I don't know. I can't think of the word it's, it does, it does circle around though, even though it's pretty linear, it does circle around. A lot of regresses and progresses. And we're leaving of themes in different points in different ways. Did you have another one to talk about Robin?

[01:08:46] Well, I just wanted to say, you guys were talking about Carol as a mother yesterday when I was little, I guess when you were talking. And, um, it's interesting to me, Carol as a mother. Um, I was also battered, um, at one point in my life and, um, it, I certainly didn't turn it to Paula, but it, it, it, it didn't turn me into Carol either. I wasn't totally, you know, uh, beaten down by it and scared and timid and let that.

[01:09:15] And so she definitely made mistakes with Sophia. Um, she didn't leave Ed. She left for a couple of days at the, at the shelter we found out. And she didn't really teach Sophia how to stand up for herself. And so Sophia, and she didn't have time in the apocalypse, but she didn't teach Sophia enough, um, self-determination to keep Sophia from running off and getting lost.

[01:09:44] And so, and she didn't make a lot of mistakes like that. She teaches the kids to use the knives, I think, to make up for that, um, that she, she, she didn't teach, um, so Sophia. And so she, and she doesn't want the other parents to know about it because I think at heart, Carol probably was really secretive before too. Yeah. She's secretive now. She was hiding out. But I think she was too. Yeah. Always.

[01:10:12] Um, and I, that's, that whole thing, her failure to get away from Ed, her failure with Sophia. Um, and I, I believe her failure even maybe to recognize Lizzie later on a little bit is the genesis of her. I had to do something. I had to do something that she says it so many times. Um, I had to kill Karen and David. I had to do something because she never did before as a mother.

[01:10:38] And then when she does get Lucy or Lisa, Lucy, sorry, Lucy, Lizzie and, and Mika, you know, she makes sure that they can take care of themselves, that they can, that they're not just going to get scared and run off. Um, but so, um, I don't know if she was a terrible mother, but I don't think she was a very good mother. And I agree probably not until Henry came along. She was a pretty good mother to him, but he was a boy and time had gone and he already knew how to be in the apocalypse.

[01:11:08] So that was just one more thing that I wanted to say. That's interesting. I'd never thought about that. Yeah. We've seen her with daughters, inverted commas with Lizzie and Mika, but never with a boy. Yeah. Interesting. So maybe there was less trauma immediately apparent there. Like, oh man, I hadn't thought of it that way, Robin. Thank you for sharing that. Well, I'm sorry you had to go through that. Oh, thank you.

[01:11:34] Well, it was a very, very long time ago and it was, it was, um, well, it was one of those, you know, everything in life. I'm, you know, I'm not going to say, oh, everything, there's a lesson and it all happens for a reason, but it was an interest. It was, it was, um, instructive for sure. It changed the way I raised my daughters for, well, my mother raised me to not be that way. But when you're, when you're in the situation, you know, I feel for Carol, um, when she was in that situation.

[01:12:00] And I sort of understand where she was coming from with Pete because of, of the situation that she had been before. But I just felt like that was really kind of a huge leap to just go straight into killing. Yeah. Um, yeah, but, um, yeah, it's, it's interesting. It changes the way you raise your children. It certainly changes the way she relates to people and the things that she has. She's always saying I had to do something. Had to do it. She spends so long feeling that you can't do anything. Right.

[01:12:30] So I'm also sorry to hear that anything like that happened to you. I want to ask you, since you brought it up, because I, you know, I've talked about on the podcast before, I had an abusive couple of abusive stepdads and I saw them be more abusive to my mom than to me. And, uh, my reaction to Pete wasn't, you should just kill him. So I wonder you, another sort of survivor, I guess, did you feel that way?

[01:13:00] I wouldn't blame you if you did. I just, I'm just curious. Well, no, I didn't feel like, well, no, I didn't actually hate Pete and feel that he should have been killed. No, no. Um, just, you know, even though I had, you know, my own fantasies about between the eyes. No, I, I didn't feel like that. I felt like, um, he was way too valuable to do that as, uh, you know, as we know doctors in the, in the walking dead don't, don't make it.

[01:13:25] And if they could have found a way to keep him away from Jesse and the children, the boys, the kids, I think that would have been very preferable to just going ahead and killing him. So, um, I'm not really sure, I guess, I don't know. I guess that maybe Carol, I don't know. I don't know why she felt. Well, she's got that whole, that's her thing. Kill all threats. Right. Kill all threats. And they were behind the walls and they're where, you know, where were they really going to put him?

[01:13:55] What were they really going to do? It would have been as, um, you know, he would have had to buy into it and he probably wouldn't have. Um, when I, I got a restraining order at one point and, and the, the police chief said to me, now, you know, this, this only works as long as it's a piece of paper. It only works as long as somebody buys into it. Yeah. And I could definitely see them trying to keep Pete away and him not obeying it. And then they would have had to either banish him or kill him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:23] I think Carol just short circuited a lot. Yeah. The bits that would have to happen in between. She probably had serious. That's right. Yeah. And here, I mean, it's the opposite. Like Maggie says, you know, she, Carol gets free. She goes in and freeze Maggie and she's like, let's get out of here. And then Maggie's like, we can't leave them alive. No, we should just go. Carol, we have to finish this. We have to. So Maggie is definitely still on like Rick's plan for this whole thing.

[01:14:52] Get rid of all of them. She, she thinks, I guess. I don't know. Maggie's more brutal than I remember. And she's very brutal. Yeah. Yeah. Is she right? Is she, I mean, I feel like just for safety, they should try to get away as soon as possible. But as far as whether that's the right thing to do otherwise. I think they all still believe there is a realistic chance that they are killing the threat as a whole. Yeah. I think if Maggie knew at that point that the sanctuary existed, it would not be a priority.

[01:15:20] But I think they're still in the mentality of we are so close to finishing this job properly. Yeah. Genocide. But they don't realize that's not true. Yeah. Good thing they killed Negan at the end of the episode. Yeah. Yeah. Maggie is kind of shockingly brutal and feral in this, in this, in a lot of ways. All right. Is it, I think it's Lucy's turn, right? Is that right? Yeah. I'm just on my kind of bits and pieces notes. So if you've got a big point, Jay, go for it. Let me see.

[01:15:49] Just this, the end, you know, uh, uh, Carol and Maggie are in this room with zombies. Are they kind of like a tech, like they've gotten themselves impaled or were they like chained up for some reason? Cause they're kind of stuck in this hallway. I wasn't quite sure. It looked like some were kind of impaled. Um, and Carol or one of them says they put those here to keep, to keep us in thinking, I guess, that they wouldn't be able to fight their way out past.

[01:16:19] Um, walkers that are stuck or impaled. Yeah. Because in the beginning, um. It's a bit of a shit trap, isn't it? It's like, oh, so they can't move. Yeah. They can't move. One of the, I think one of the listeners was like, well, what kind of a safe house is this with all these zombies walking around? But there was something in the dialogue of that. Oh, they were like, this place has gone to shit. All the food's gone. It's filled with walkers. Yeah. So it's people like infiltrated and, uh, anyway.

[01:16:45] So then they decided to just leave them there as, uh, security. If Rick and his people showed up, then they would have to get through the zombies, which as we know, it wouldn't be much of a deterrent to them. But anyway, that doesn't totally jive with them being stuck. Like who arranged it so they could just be stuck there. But anyway, so then, um, Paula shows up and Carol points a gun in her, but doesn't want to kill her and tells her to just run.

[01:17:11] And, um, I just, I'm like, you already killed somebody, but she's still in that position where she's really struggling with it. And maybe she sees herself in, in Paula. Um, so they fight, Paula gets impaled. Then Carol impersonates the guy on the radio to meet them on the kill floor because it's a slaughterhouse, right? It's an abandoned slaughterhouse. And that's a real thing.

[01:17:38] The kill floor is where you lead animals that are going to be butchered. Right. Okay. I was going to ask. And that, I wonder if that was a deliberate play on Gareth saying you're either the butcher or the cattle, you know, cause now maybe Carol's decided the same thing. Like I don't want to be the cattle. And so they know these people are coming and if they don't do anything that they will get them.

[01:18:01] And I got to admit, I mean, I don't like murder, but it was kind of delicious that they lured these people into this horrible trap. There was something about it that was satisfying. It was, it was like good plan you guys. Yeah. Yeah. And Carol said, I think I might've killed 18 people to Maggie 20. I should have killed Donnie too.

[01:18:30] It's 20 because she just killed, um, Paula and who else? Uh, Michelle. So now it's 20 because of the list she'd made last week. It was up to 18. She said, I should have killed Donnie too. Well, she did kill Donnie. She shot him in the arm and then he died. It took a while, but he bled out. So it's really 21. And then I read that there were five saviors on the kill floor. So that's 26. Oh, there were five. Did they split them between Maggie and Carol for the kill floor?

[01:18:59] I think it's like two and a half each. Who threw the lighter? Uh, I don't know, but who poured the petrol? I think Carol did it all. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I think she did too. I don't know who threw the lighter either. I thought it was Carol. I think it'd probably be Carol. Oh, I think, didn't she keep the lighter and she threw the cigarette in there? Cigarette. Whatever it was. Yeah. Cause I was like, oh God, my, my luck, if that was me, it would go out while I threw it. Or fly backwards. Like when you're driving, no, I'm on fire. Okay.

[01:19:27] So it's, um, 24 and a half. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. Quite a few. Let me ask you this. Had Maggie killed any, a lot of, how many people had Maggie killed before all of this? I was racking my brain trying to go back. I feel like not none, maybe or only one or two actual real people. I don't know. That weren't like wolves. That weren't like wolves.

[01:19:57] I don't know. That's a really good question. I don't know. She seemed kind of unfazed. It becomes more. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. As the course of the series goes on. Yeah. I, I had a few questions. I wondered why since Paula and her people had a car, they didn't just go to where more saviors were. Why did they have to stop in this safe house? I think it's because so the story could happen, but I don't know if there's. They may not have known if attacks were happening anywhere else. That's the other thing.

[01:20:27] I mean, they're like, let me stop here and wait until reinforcements come. I'm like, just go to the reinforcements. Go to where they are. Did you have any more points, Robin, before we go to notes? No, I just had some notes. It's awesome. Okay, go ahead. If you want to go ahead with your notes. Okay. I loved the view from under the hoods when they were walking the, Paula and them were walking Carol and Maggie. I liked that too. That was so cool. Watched just seeing their feet and that's, you know, they had nowhere.

[01:20:54] Where they, and there, and it was almost like, I'm kind of watching to see where I'm going. So maybe I can get away and get out. But that's, that wasn't what it was. There was nothing for them to see, but I really liked that shot. Um, and I said this before. I love that Mary or Molly said, nice jacket. I thought she was going to take it. I really did. I thought once they got to the, to the slaughterhouse, she would be like, I'm, I'm at, I'm taking that jacket. Um, so I, I was surprised, um, the tape job on their wrists.

[01:21:24] Oh, please come on. That was so terrible. They just wound it around. I feel like I know. I mean, I know duct tape is really sticky, but I feel like at some point you could just pull your hand out, but, um, you know, they had to be, had to be tied up. Um, it was really interesting to me, the, the Carol cutting herself on the rosary at the end when she squeezed it hand. I don't know if that was symbolic or metaphorical. It does seem like it, that yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:52] She had to, um, hurt herself somehow to get, to get through it. And, and both of them just falling apart after it was all over. Just, you know, Maggie saying to Glenn, I can't do it anymore. I can't do it. But then the, my last note, Maggie throws up. Yeah. We know she's pregnant. Was it this? Was it you guys that was talking about, you, you don't know somebody who's really pregnant. Okay. Um, and I noticed she's definitely pregnant.

[01:22:21] We can't see it, but she threw up. So yeah, that was my last, my last. They should have had her saying she really wants some pickles or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My boobs hurt and I want some pickles. Oh my word. One of my notes was, was related to that. Uh, yeah. Maggie says she thinks she's about two months gone, which makes sense as to why we don't really see her, um, look that pregnant in this storyline, despite the fact it goes on for.

[01:22:51] Especially with your first one. Another year and a half. Yeah. They're like her, wouldn't she? No. Um, Chekhov's fuel cans at the start, like the fuel cans, the smoking. I'm like, oh yeah, this is what's going to happen here. I also love the shots, um, of the feet and the kind of disorientation of it all. Um, oh, Carol reveals what happened to the group on the road. She mentions that they were blown up and one of them said, now we know what happened to T's group.

[01:23:18] Um, does anyone survive from this that can tell Negan that? No. I was going to say that. That was probably not a great thing to reveal. I think it was Molly and didn't she say something like, oh, I'm sure he put on a big show. Yeah. Yeah. But Negan does figure out that Rick's group killed everyone at this outpost. Yeah. He will. That sort of supersedes the art whole RPG incident, I would say. Yeah.

[01:23:47] I think he's probably pissed off about both, I would imagine. But yeah, this will obviously be worse. Um, I think I've covered all my notes, actually. I've gone through all of this during the pod. So I've just got trivia and timeline, but I'll pass to Jason first. Um, I thought it was kind of funny that Paula says to Rick, they'll make a trade at the large field that says God is dead. I don't know why, but. Yeah.

[01:24:15] I, that was to be fair, hysterical. And then, um, then Paula signs off on the walkie and immediately turns and says, that was too easy. There's no static. They're close waiting to kill us. We're not going to do that. And I'm like, you shouldn't be showing your cards like that right in front of Carol there. It's like. Well, indeed. They took their gags off and then left them off and let them talk and let them hear all their plans and everything.

[01:24:43] To me, that was just kind of indicative that they thought they were going to kill them. Kill them. But I don't know. Yeah. Cause I wasn't even sure exactly what their plan was. Like they, they were waiting for reinforcements to come for why? I had no idea. Were they going to try to kill Rick and his people? Maybe that's why. Because at one point they were like, oh, we could, you know, you could just get that guy some, you know, medical attention. And they're like, nah. And I'm like, okay.

[01:25:12] Yeah. Right. And were they planning to kill Carol? I mean, at one point somebody said we'll need to travel light. I guess that means we're going to kill these two, but they didn't actually say that. Maybe they were just going to leave them there. Probably kill them. Maybe they're not as organized. Yeah. Then I wonder if maybe they were going to try to capture them all and take them back to Megan. I don't know. Yeah. All right. What is the trivia and timeline here? Trivia.

[01:25:40] During her backstory monologue, Paula says that before the outbreak, she was a secretary who fetched coffee for her boss and made him feel good about himself. A year prior, Alicia Witt had a season long arc as a crooked paralegal on Justified, a profession of which another character remarked, you're a secretary getting old men coffee. This is the 80th episode of The Walking Dead, which is wild. Michelle, the actress who plays Michelle and the actress who plays Paula have starred in

[01:26:09] the show Nashville together, although they never shared a scene. I thought Michelle looked familiar. And that will be why. This next one says the zombified version of Paula at the end is played by a different actress. Did we see a zombified Paula? Yeah. We did? Do we? Yeah. When the one bites her cheek off and then I can't remember what happens.

[01:26:38] And then a couple of minutes later, she is lunging toward Carol and them. And Carol or Maggie shoots her and she turns around and you can see her. She leans against the other one and he leans and she's. Well, it's not Alicia Witt because there was not enough time to get her into full makeup. Apparently. This is really. Look, that surprises me. Look a lot like her. Yeah.

[01:27:06] In terms of the timeline, the lineup is on May 3rd, which is 11 days away because this episode takes place on day 607, which is April 22nd. So it's quite close. Yeah. And Carol passes away on June the 1st. So just over six weeks from now. Oh my God. Really? Oh, I had no idea it was that close.

[01:27:30] It's funny what having the season 7A arc take place over two and a half years does to your sense of what's happening in the show. But yeah, that's pretty bleak for timeline. Alicia Witt came to, I think, just like two or three Walker Stalkers and was super fun and nice and cheery. Interesting. What was she like? Yeah. Was she fun to kind of chat to? I actually didn't get to spend a lot of time with her.

[01:28:00] But just even quick interactions, I could tell she was just like really engaged and fun, you know. And that's why I heard about her too. She seems like an interesting person. Yeah. She was on The Talking Dead on one of the episodes with Chris, whatever his name was. And she was funny on there too. She said that a lot of it was just so much fun and a lot of what they did, they would end

[01:28:26] up and just kind of dissolving into laughter. It just seemed so silly. And she seemed like a really fun, loving person. Then I read a year or two ago, her parents were living somewhere, very elderly parents, and they refused any help from her. And they were having a really hard time and they froze to death in their house. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah.

[01:28:54] And she went to visit them and they were, you know. Yeah. It's very crazy. And she was, of course, heartbroken and had tried so hard and they would not take any help from her at all. Wow. That was so sad. I know. I was like, yeah. Terrible. I remembered there was a thing when you, when you were, yeah. I was like, there's a, there's a tragedy or something around her and I couldn't remember the details of it. And yeah, that is. Yeah.

[01:29:21] It really struck me because my mom lived in a big old drafty farmhouse and, and we were always worrying about her in the wintertime. She, I mean, she would have taken help, but you know, I thought, yeah, I guess if your parents won't help, if they won't let you help, then there's not much. What can you do? You still got autonomy, right? Yep. Yep. Only on the walking dead. Does it seem like every freaking episode is a debate about whether you should kill people? Oh man.

[01:29:51] Only on the walking dead does smoking really, really, really, really, really, really kill. Really, really kill. Don't smoke. It'll kill you. We already kind of talked about mine and I couldn't think of another one on the fly. Only in the walking dead. Would you arrive at, at a former slaughterhouse? And walk into a gas-filled room and go, wow, the floor is slippery. Yeah. Oh, well. It must have stunk in there. And not suspect anything. Yeah. You know, we can't really breathe, but I'm sure it's fine. It'll be grand.

[01:30:20] It'll be grand. Yeah. So, uh, Lucy's going to be leaving us right now because it's like nighttime over there and we're, we're really late. So, uh, thank you, Lucy. And we sure are. No, it was absolutely worth it. It was such a pleasure to be here with you guys. Um, Robin, it was just so nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Is Zoom in person? It's in person. Close enough. Um, yeah. It is in person. Yes. I'm really glad to meet you too. I was really, um, really glad that you were able to be there and we could talk. And yeah, I really liked listening to you.

[01:30:51] Oh, thank you. Thank you for listening to my garbled thoughts. And, um, I will be back next week for twice as far, which I'm excited for. Uh, do we have a guest next week, Jason? Nope. Just me and you. Just me and you hashing it out. Um, amazing. Well, enjoy. I look forward to listening to the feedback when the episode is released.

[01:31:46] All right. Now it's time for listener moans, groans, and grunts. Okay. Jennifer McGinley says, eee, Paul, I fucking hated her. Uh, did you hate her? I, I thought she was a good character. Interesting. Not a nice person. That's my judgment. Yeah. I didn't hate her. I, I didn't hate her. Um, but yeah, I was kind of appalled by her. Right.

[01:32:14] Grippy Dabalino says one of my favorite savior episodes, dirty little bird, LOL. The guy Carol shot just agonizes in pain through the whole episode and doesn't get any sympathy, LOL. Then I saw how Carol finished the job, brutal and awesome. A moment that tops this episode is Rick's interaction with Primo originally aired on international women's day. Oh, that's cool. I know that. Uh, general milady says one of my fave episodes. I always remember Paula's story.

[01:32:44] As I think, as I think before I worked as a teacher, I was in an office and had demanding managers. Paula's boss wouldn't let her leave when they started evacuating. And by the time she got home, all her children are dead. It's my worst nightmare. He was the first person she killed, but the tension in this episode was great. And Maggie's fight was scary as the other woman went for her tummy. Paula's death was savage though. And I can't watch it back. Carol and Maggie are just fire. Literally don't mess with the mothers.

[01:33:13] It's funny. The way Gemma put it, it sounds like Paula went home, found her kids dead and was mad at the boss for keeping her late at work. So went back and killed them. But yeah, I don't think that's quite it, but it's close. It's probably pretty close. Amber Lobo says quick feedback. Carol and Maggie were awesome in this episode. I love how Carol plays all week and innocent. It's actually great. Is her kill count starting to affect her mental health a little? I think so.

[01:33:42] I like how she seemed to take all the, all the living for Maggie. I don't get that. I actually enjoyed a few new characters and I'm sad they all didn't make it. Even though they were enemies. It reminds me of life today. We have leaders convincing us we're enemies and sometimes it's a case of misinformation and having a tyrant telling us lies to keep us apart. Things are heating up and I'm so scared for the next few episodes. I mean, yeah, I'm of two minds.

[01:34:12] I said, I kind of blame Negan for all of this, but, um, these people are culpable too. I would say. Definitely. Well, yeah. Anybody that's, that's part of it is going to be culpable, I guess. Um, unless they're just always in the savior compound and just, you know, don't know the truth of what's happening outside. Yeah. Totally. Phoebe, the fan says, is this episode and the one prior irrelevant to the lineup?

[01:34:40] We know that Abraham already blew up some of Negan's men with an RPG. I believe the lineup would have happened anyway. Negan doesn't care whether that was self-defense or not. And he was likely on the hunt for whoever did that to his men prior to Rick and the gang attacking the outpost. Remember, Dwight went back to him and could have identified Daryl had he seen him out and about. The Hilltop knows it was Rick's group that blew Negan's men up.

[01:35:07] Maybe it wouldn't have been Glenn or Abraham who got the bat, but eventually Negan would have figured out who they were and he wouldn't have let that go unpunished. Yeah, I think that's true. I think you said that earlier that he would, or Lucy did, that he would have figured it out eventually. Yeah. But I wonder if he would have done, well, you know, he would do that, kill one person from a group anyway. That was his MO.

[01:35:33] So I think, um, whether he found out that Rick and crew did that or not, if he would have ever found Alexandria, that's what they would have gotten, you know, some kind of a, I don't know how they, cause they had all those Polaroids of people with their heads bashed in. Well, those were gruesome, weren't they? Yeah. Gross. Oh. How did they create that? The special effects department. Oh, I know. Awful. All right.

[01:36:02] Megan Dively Lemon says, Oh, wow. We're here already. This is one episode I'd hope to rewatch before we got to it. This is top 10 walking dead for me. Alicia Witt's performance was stellar. This is how you capture and captivate an audience in a one episode character appearance. Yeah, I agree. Carol and Maggie as a pair may be far more formidable than even Rick and Daryl. If someone tried to slice me or my pregnant friend in the stomach, I'd go medieval on them too.

[01:36:28] Carol's vocal impersonation of Paula, meet me on the kill floor and then match in the gas tank. Boom, boom. Indelible. I give this episode five pizzas and a ring. No, five Paulas and a primo. All right. Here's a call from Randy. Hey, Jason, Lucy and potential guest host who, by the way, you are killing it this episode. And if there isn't a guest host, this hasn't been my favorite episode.

[01:36:58] I just wanted to call in and talk about this episode a little bit. It's not my favorite episode, but the acting from Melissa McBride is incredible. She's basically playing multiple characters all at once. She's playing base Carol, who is a badass and she's not afraid of anything. And then base Carol is playing a pretend meek version of Carol.

[01:37:24] But while she's being meek Carol, little bits of fear from base Carol is coming out of her. And that's just ridiculous. It's such an amazing acting feat to be able to show layers of a character like that. The one thing about this episode that really stood out to me besides that though, was that we're introduced to these saviors and they are given a lot of backstory.

[01:37:51] And typically if a character shows up and they're not given any backstory or characterization, you assume that character is going to die. Somehow the opposite feels true with the saviors in this episode. They're given too much backstory. These characters are going to die. I started smoking when I was four years old. No, stop. You need to save some backstory for a future episode. If you want to let interesting,

[01:38:18] I'm calling this effect the neon red shirt because they are too bright, drawing way too much attention. And clearly they are going to die. That makes sense. I'm curious also if anybody who had read the comics thought that they had killed off Negan in this episode because Primo does look like a shorter version of comic book Negan and the show occasionally veers off from the comic book.

[01:38:47] So anybody who had read the comics, I'm curious to hear what they thought about that. And then the final thing is, I love the fact that everybody on the radio calls Rick an asshole. Glenn does it early on. It happens in this episode. Rick sometimes is an asshole and he's the type of guy. You probably want to do it from a distance. So I get it. As always, I've been loving your coverage of the rewatch.

[01:39:14] It's so much fun to go back and see all of this stuff in new context. So keep up the good work and bye. Bye. Bye. Yeah. Like she, Paula would just be like, Hey, asshole, such and such. And Rick would just ignore it. He wouldn't even acknowledge that she said that. Just answer the question. He just answers like it's normal. He doesn't think anything of it.

[01:39:43] I get that all the time. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Billy Thompson says, hello, hello. Hope you guys are well. Just a quick few thoughts on these last two episodes, two episodes. Okay. Because I missed last week's Rick's worst decision throughout the whole series was so rash. And it's not like they didn't have at least some time to think things through. Seeing Glenn's face when killing the saviors was just horrible. It's so against his nature and him as a character.

[01:40:12] It was really upsetting to see. Abraham, what a dick was such a good character and seems a strange decision to have him break up with Rosita in such a shitty way. You know, sidebar, you guys were talking about that last week and I, or yes, yesterday when I listened to it, I wonder if it's because he knew that unless he was mean to her, she'd fight him on it. I don't know. That she'd. It could be, but I still think. If he just devastated her. No respect.

[01:40:42] Oh no, I agree. Totally. But I'm wondering if he just thought if he devastated her, she would just, I, you know, not, not ask a lot of questions and he wouldn't have to explain himself. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, he's going to see her with Sasha and why not just say I'm, I fell in love with Sasha. I mean, I don't think what's Rosita going to say to that. I know. I, I, my, in my imagination, if he said I fell in love with Sasha and I don't want to see you anymore. She'd be like, what? Fuck you. What are you talking about? Fine.

[01:41:12] I don't want to see you either. Get out of here. Yeah. I feel like he didn't really know her that well because although maybe he does know her well and she'd go after Sasha. No, I'm kidding. But anyway, okay. Sorry about that. Anyway, this episode here, Carol comes again with her little act. She does it so well. I'm trying to think if anyone doesn't fall for it. Only King Ezekiel from my memory. It was such a performance from Melissa McBride. Yeah. I also really enjoyed Paula as a character in this episode.

[01:41:42] Although she was a villain, she was interesting, charismatic, and could have had a future as an Alexandrian if circumstances were different. It does surprise me so many identify as Negan and stay loyal, even in the most dire situations. As we eventually find out, there is a lot of people not happy with the way Negan runs things and how he treats his own. So anyway, thanks guys. Bye. People in these cult-like situations will accept so much shit before they wake up. Yeah.

[01:42:12] You've done a lot of work with studying cults, right? I feel like you... Yeah. I've just read books, watched some documentaries, and I guess there was one organization that was sort of veered that way that I was a part of for a little while. I wouldn't say it was a full-blown, but it had some elements of it. Yeah. And I've just thought about it a lot. I think there's a lot of things that have cult-like properties but aren't full-blown cults. Oh, I agree. Yeah. Two, like Apple.

[01:42:44] Billy asked whether anyone else besides Ezekiel saw through Carol's act. I love that moment with Ezekiel, by the way. That's when he reveals that he was a zookeeper and not a king. But Morgan did a little bit this season. Didn't he say something like, I noticed something about you or that sort of tipped off that... Like, are you a cop or something? Yeah. I noticed that you're always watching. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it was. Yeah.

[01:43:13] I realize Randy had brought up an interesting point that I forgot to address. He asked if any comic readers thought that Primo was actually Negan. And I'm wondering if any non-comic readers thought that. What about you? Do you remember if you thought that was possibly Negan or not? Probably not, right? I don't remember. I remember thinking it was kind of... The whole interaction between them was kind of weird. And he just seemed like if he was Negan, I don't know, that he wouldn't be riding off on a motorcycle. I just... I doubted it. I doubted it.

[01:43:43] But I didn't really know.

[01:43:59] I don't know. It was dumb. It was a dumb thing to do. It was very dumb. I think they've just been coached to say that. Matt King says, Carol really sold herself to her savior captors as weak and useless old lady.

[01:44:27] Little did they know that given half a chance, she would kill them all with one hand tied behind her back. I don't think that's true. I think she was wrestling with whether or not to kill him. Evidence for that is she had her gun pointed right at Paul and told her, just run away. Maggie getting stabbed by Michelle triggers Carol to shoot Michelle. Then after a scuffle, Carol pushes Paul onto a spike and then they set fire to the reinforcements that Paula had called in. Well, yeah, there is all that. That is all true.

[01:44:53] It's quite funny that Rick instigated this crazy murder rampage, believing this was all of Negan's forces rather than just an outpost. And the sheep all went along with it. The look on their faces when all the saviors said they were Negan was priceless. Apparently this episode has a 97% score on Rotten Tomatoes. I didn't know that. Enjoy it while it lasts as the big N is only a few episodes away. Okay. Here's a call from Renee.

[01:45:21] Hi, Jason and Lucy and whomever else is, um, gets hosting tonight. Now I have missed, um, I don't know how many episodes, so I'm going to be all over the place. Because I did not like the fact that Unnecessary was helping to get Judith ready to go through the herd in the No Way Out episode. I didn't like that at all.

[01:45:47] Michonne has been the one taking care of her, so Michonne should have been the one getting her ready. Now let's talk about Roshone becoming canon. Because baby, the way everyone was looking at them when they came in their house was so funny. And Jesus was sitting there oblivious. And Carl had me cracking up. The way he was looking at Rick and Michonne, like, what are you guys doing? Sir, ma'am, please put on some clothes.

[01:46:16] Please put on some clothes. And then when they were sitting at the table and Michonne was trying to hide behind her locks, looking all embarrassed. And meanwhile, Carl had a little grime smirk like, yeah, mm-hmm, I knew it. I knew it the whole time. And Rick coming out of that room, zipping up his pants. It's like, sir, y'all already know. I paused that scene and paused it and paused it and paused it. But what I loved the most was seeing them become a family.

[01:46:45] I'm so happy they're finally a family. And when Rick was telling Carl about him and Michonne, it was awkward, but it was so sweet. And when Carl said it's cool, you can just feel the relief wash over Rick. Because one thing I've always appreciated about Rick is that he does not keep anything from Carl. Their relationship has always been built on honesty. Now let's get to Abraham and Sasha. Abrasha.

[01:47:11] I'm trying to be objective, but I'm still struggling with this one. I understand why they connected. They both carry a lot of grief and trauma. However, I don't understand how Abraham could tell Rosita that she's damn near perfect and then turn around and leave her. That whole situation was disrespectful to me. And yes, I blame Sasha as well because she knew he was in a relationship.

[01:47:38] Now I know a lot of fans love Abrasha, but I never got invested because loyalty is important to me. That's one of my core values. If you do that to one person or stopping you from doing it to someone else. My grandma always said, how you get a man is how you keep a man. Now moving on to the outpost attack. One thing that drives me insane is when people act like Rick made that decision all by himself. He did not.

[01:48:06] The group had a discussion about it. They voted and Morgan is the only one that objected. Everyone else agreed. Daryl was one of the loudest voices pushing for action because he had already seen how dangerous the saviors were. Now could Rick have more intel? Absolutely. But I blame Jesus. And Rick was basking in the glow of having the baddest chick in the game win his shame.

[01:48:34] And now let's not rewrite history and pretend this was a dictatorship. It was absolutely not. It was a group decision. And after seeing those pictures on the wall and hearing what the saviors have been doing to other communities. I understand why Rick and the crew felt they needed to act first. They did what they were supposed to do. Now on to the Carol and Maggie episode. This episode was so hard to watch. They just seemed so downtrodden.

[01:49:03] And I feel the same way because I know it's coming. And the saviors would have killed Rick's group without hesitation. So Rick and the crew did what they needed to do. And so did Carol and Maggie in my opinion. They did what they needed to do to survive. And that's why I don't like Negan. And I can't stand Negan. And that's why everything that he built crumbled.

[01:49:28] Because if you build a community around fear, control, and forcing people to submit. Eventually people are going to fight back. Wink, wink. Anyway. Peace and love. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Renee. Oh, God. Well said. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I don't agree with all that, but I'm glad you said it. Called in and said it. Okay. Courtney Parsons. Hi, guys.

[01:49:55] First off, I love that Carol is taking a moment to inventory her murders. And she's battling with herself over who she's become. Ultimately, she will always do what she believes will help her people. I love her helpless homemaker persona she puts on. Carol has always been my favorite character because I think she has one of the best arcs. I felt sort of conflicted about this group of saviors because the women seemed almost reasonable compared to other saviors. I really like Alicia Witt, the redhead, from the other things I've seen her in.

[01:50:25] It was my first time seeing her in something other than comedy, and I thought she was great. I remember the ominous feeling the first time I watched these episodes that the group had gotten themselves into something much bigger than they thought. Personally, if I had just killed that many people thinking one of them was going to be Negan and I kept hearing we're all Negan, I would start getting a bit nervous. Yeah. I'm savoring the Maggie and Glenn era right now. Maggie becomes such a shell of herself after he dies.

[01:50:54] Forgot to mention in my previous email that I cannot stand Gregory. I'm sure that's a common sentiment, but man, he just gets under my skin. I've known a smug little worm or two like him. I love Jesus, though, and how hard he tries to make a better world for everyone. The video of Rick and Daryl chasing him with the Benny Hill music kills me. I just keep thinking, I'm pretty sure this isn't in my head that at some point we're going to hear Eugene say, I'm Negan. Right?

[01:51:23] Does he ever say it? Oh, I don't know. He joins the saviors for a little while. He does. I'm pretty sure he does. He does. I'm sure he says it. I'm Negan. Okay. Thank you, Courtney. Rinaldi says, quote, we all had to do the worst kind of things to stay alive. Rick Grimes. That's right. I had to write this while I was at work because Jason posted it so close to the time he starts recording. It's okay, Jason. We forgive you. I forgot. Sorry. We got a lot of feedback, though. You deserve a spinoff podcast. Listen to Wax Episodic.

[01:51:53] Subscribe to it and give it a five-star review. It's that good. Wow. Thank you. We're covering Severance on there. Me and Karen right now. After watching this episode, it gets harder and harder to make an argument for Negan getting a spinoff beyond Jeffrey Dean Morgan is a very good actor. And some people, including me, find his portrayal of Negan entertaining. That's it. I do, too. Because Alicia Witt's character, Paula, is a mixed bag.

[01:52:19] On the one hand, as Paula, she's arguing with Carol, she more or less concludes, and I'm paraphrasing here, that peaceful cooperation with others is a pipe dream. It's about survival. And I have to work for Negan, and so do Molly, the cigarette lady, and Michelle, the young woman. Jason takes a deep breath to shout at the TV to argue with Paula about this.

[01:52:40] That was one thing about her, that she's like, yeah, I had this boss, and I had to do what he said, and then the zombie apocalypse happened, and I got to be a stronger version of myself, so I killed him. Then, now I work for this other guy, Negan. Right. She really didn't. Yeah, except apparently she does have some power with Negan. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, she kind of recreated her life. I mean, maybe she feels more respect for him because he's stronger or something. I don't know.

[01:53:09] There's so many questions I have for her about her situation, but she can't answer them. But then Paula tries to sling mud and guilt at Carol, arguing that her group killed the motorcycle savior group. Michelle's boyfriend was in that group. Michelle pondered if she and her boyfriend could settle down, but thanks to Carol's friend, Michelle can't, clearly foreshadowing for Maggie's fate in season seven with hindsight.

[01:53:38] And like the hilltoppers who attacked Rick and his people. Poor Crystal, who got absolutely decked by Michonne in episode 11. Paula enjoys being a savior if she's trying to shame Carol. Maggie, along with probably Jason, Lucy, and Robin, is like these woman saviors are dirtbags who hurt innocent people. I'm going to slaughter them. But Carol is reluctant to do so. I love the way Melissa McBride plays it.

[01:54:03] Is she tricking Paula to kill her at the right moment or does she have second thoughts about solving every problem with violence? I think it's a little bit of both. Oh, tricking Paula to kill her. I never thought about that. Yeah, but she didn't kill her when she had the chance. So I think she is tricking Paula just to, like I said, keep it a secret. She likes it when people underestimate her. Oh, okay. Oh, I read that differently. Tricking Paula. Tricking Paula so she could kill Paula at the right moment. But that's not what he means. Yeah.

[01:54:33] That's what, no, that's what I thought he meant too. Oh, okay. But she had a moment to kill her and didn't. So I don't think that's right. Yeah. But I do think that she was putting on an act so that Paula would underestimate her so that she could sort of have the upper hand. Yeah. He goes, hmm, the rest of this episode is very mere average and paint my numbers though. It's number 20.

[01:54:52] It's number 120 out of 177 in my Walking Dead rankings because outside of Alicia Witt and Melissa McBride standing out in a big way acting wise and having a cool confrontation with Alicia Witt's Paula becoming a zombie, an absolute crime. Melissa McBride never got an Emmy. This episode is so dry. It's a bottle episode with very little budget. It's a necessary evil though because episode nine, no way out was good because the budget was so much bigger for that episode. I don't know.

[01:55:19] I think in bottle episodes they use existing assets, but I think I read they built this whole fake slaughterhouse. I could be wrong about that. Yeah. What else would they have? Maybe someplace in the prison. It looks kind of like the prison vibe, huh? Yeah. He continues. Anyway, I'll finish off this letter by asking without the comic book, would any of you three, Jason, Robin and Lucy been convinced Negan was killed the way Rick was at the end of this episode?

[01:55:49] As a fan who realized there's three episodes left this season, not as a character in the show. I think he's asking what Randy asked. Did we think that was actually Negan? And I'm pretty sure not because they'd very much telegraphed that all Negan's people said they were Negan. Right. Thanks, Rinaldi. All right. Here's one more call from Steve Brown. Hello, Walking Deadcast. This is Steve. I just finished Not Tomorrow Yet and about to start the same boat.

[01:56:18] If I'm remembering, this is the one to quote Jeffrey Winger from Community. We're doing a bottle episode. The same boat. Oh, and I had to change discs for the Blu-ray. So it must be getting close to the end. Oh, that's right. We pick up with Maggie and Carol. And Carol's already starting her week act. I can't remember what the Redhead's name is. The character name. It's Felicia. Not Felicia Day. That's not right. It's who? Ah, Alicia Witt. Okay. The cold open hasn't been finished yet, so I need to slow down. Okay, so this Paula is talking to more people.

[01:56:46] So now we find out this group is bigger than just this one place. Where did the crucifix come from that Carol just found on the floor? This is a rosary, isn't it? Ah, the woman at Mall's just did the same boat. Title of the episode, mic drop. Mic drop. Because she's dying, I guess. Wait, where did that rosary come from? Was it hers? No, I had to watch it because I couldn't figure it out either. When they drag, there's a dead walker in that room, and they drag it out.

[01:57:11] And she had it in her hand or on her arm, and it caught on Carol's boot. Yeah, because I wondered, too. Yeah, that just makes me suspect that Carol's not at all religious. Yeah. That's the smartest thing you could have done, though, Paula. I mean, bonking him on the head because you need both Carol and Maggie alive. Oh, so now they're interrogating Maggie, and this woman just said, you're not the good guys. It's been a debate since the beginning, isn't it? You know, which group is better, good, bad? I don't know.

[01:57:42] But, I mean, the Saviors are bad. And, Paula, you are falling for Carol's act. Interesting, Paula just said something about killing him in his sleep. I think she's talking about Primo, right? And they just killed a bunch of Saviors in their sleep. Oh, and this woman had her finger cut off for stealing gas. Oh, yeah, I forgot about this whole thing. Like, Primo said he's Negan, and now Malls just said we are all Negan. I forgot about this gag. I think they drop it pretty quick in this series. Oh, the boiling water analogy. You're supposed to be the coffee beans. You don't know how right you are, Paula.

[01:58:11] Carol is a killer. Yeah, she's in the double digits, too. And Paula has figured out that Rick is probably already there because, yeah, no static on the radio anymore. Also, Carol got loose from her bonds pretty quick with that rosary, crucifix, prayer beads, whatever. Oh, and so the arm guy just got Malls in the arm. Oh, and Maggie just going to town on Malls with that gun. Seriously, it's one of the things that always bothers me about TV shows. Like, I understand.

[01:58:34] It's real dramatic that Paula just walked in the door and racked her slide to load a bullet into the chamber of her pistol. But so you're saying your gun was never loaded to begin with? I mean, there wasn't a bullet in the chamber to begin with. Now Carol trying to let her go. And so Chela, is that the closed captioning called her? Just cut Maggie on the stomach and so Carol just shoots her in the head. Oh, and Carol just was able to imitate Paula's voice. Oh, and Glenn is the first face that Maggie sees when she opens the door.

[01:59:05] Oh, and Primo just said that he's Negan and Rick shot him in the head with Colt Python. Oh, that's the end. On to next week. So, I don't know. Maybe it's already like this. What am I trying to say? You know the thing I was saying about how this episode, one thing I liked about it is that it was mostly women and their gender was almost incidental in some ways.

[01:59:32] And then I was just thinking at the end when they came out and their men were there waiting for them. That's kind of like the inverse of a lot of movies where the guy goes through some adventure and then there's this girl at the end, you know? Waiting for it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But also I wonder if maybe like we're already enough past that kind of thing that it's not even worth talking about anymore. What do you think? Oh, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a trope for sure.

[02:00:02] Still, still in a lot of ways. There are a lot more women, uh, main characters and things. A lot more women. There used to be. Yeah. And then Rosita steps right forward and starts going in, into the building. So, you know, she's, she's ready to. Yeah. Do whatever needs to be done. She's a great character on this show. She, oh, she's one of my favorites. I just, I love my girl. And it feels like it hasn't even really started yet with her at this point. Yes. They really.

[02:00:29] And then she, yeah, they underutilize her and then they use her and then they underutilize her again. Um, so many characters come into it. Yeah. It's hard to get to them all. So, yes. All right. That is our show. Episode 705. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. And thank you, Robin. Pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having me. I enjoy it a lot. Yeah. It's, it's really fun. Thank you.

[02:00:58] Well, we're glad that you're listening along and that you, you keep kept on listening. I know you like, like a lot of people life happens and then you go off for a little while and then come back. So, glad you came back. Well, I, I pretty much, um, yeah, well, I, I pretty much hang in there, but I, I never make it to the, uh, to get the, the feedback in on time for some reason. I'm, I don't know. I, I check the podcast or the, uh, Facebook.

[02:01:23] Oh, it's probably because we record, like we've been recording like a week before we release. So it's weird. The schedule is weird. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was best for our sketch for my schedule with Lucy. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to, but hopefully I'll get, I'll get in sync and, and, but I have been listening along and watching along and I'm really, really enjoying it. It's, it's, um, fun to hear what everybody thinks now the second time through. I know. Yeah. It's very, yeah. It's, yeah, it's way, it's more fun than I thought it was going to be. It's cool.

[02:01:54] So next episode is the walking dead season six, episode 14, twice as far. If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And while you're there, why not check out some of our other podcasts like, um, run for your life just covered 28 years later, the bone temple, which I thought was great.

[02:02:19] And I was bummed that not a lot of people watched it and now it's not for certain whether they're going to do a third movie. So maybe if more people watch it on streaming, that will help. It's, it's on my queue. I have to watch it. I, I recently just watched the other one right before it. Um, and, um, so yeah, so I'll be sure to listen to that episode, that podcast when I see it. Yeah. Right on. All right. That is our show. Thanks for listening. Don't get bit. Phoebe the fan.

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